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    The Vale of Soul Making: Good and Evil

    Floyd
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    Post  Floyd Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:08 am

    I wanted to see what people think about the existence of good and evil or lack of existence.

    The modern theologian John Hick reflected on a letter by poet Keats stating that we are all existing in the 'Vale of soul making'. That is if there were no experiences of good or evil we would be 'morally static' and our existence pointless with no chance of development.

    Good and evil, then, are necessary for the developments of ones soul on its journey back to the creator. This is the reason evil is allowed by God according to Hick.

    Does evil have any substance though. Is there a Devil and a satan to accompany it. The Christian tradition would have us believe such a thing.

    Does this mean we should just sit back and let this 'apparent' evil do its thing or can we do something about it.


    Any thoughts peeps?


    Last edited by Floyd on Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:44 am; edited 2 times in total
    Mercuriel
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    Post  Mercuriel Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:23 am

    Evil is the Violation of another's Free-will choice...

    Sin is the continuance of such a Practise even when It becomes known by the Perpetrator. Sin is to do something One knows is wrong...

    The Word Sin comes from the Anuk named Sin. He and His Consort would not leave Earth when Anu proclaimed It 3500 + Years ago and so the connection is that He and His consort were thought to have gone Insane by refusing to follow Anu's orders.

    As the refusal was an outrage within the S.a.A.M.i Royal Court - It became cemmented into the Vernacular as part and parcel of the concept of Evil as it was thought to be an Evil and Insane act by the Pair at that time...

    Simply put - As there is always the most or least of something or any one Thing - There is obviously a Most Evil out there somewhere...

    Now - If others wish to call this a Devil then fine but Devil is only the word Lived backwards. The Title Devil / Satan is exactly that - A Title and It gets handed around to those Worthy of It..

    Wink


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    Post  Floyd Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:40 am

    Mercuriel wrote:Evil is the Violation of another's Free-will choice...
    ...


    Wink

    Hick would say that there are two kinds of evil, natural evil and wilful evil. The former would be when a baby deer would perish in a forest fire say and the latter when a maniac would go into a shopping mall and eliminate half the population of shoppers with a variety of automatic rifles.


    When we talk about evil I think we do it in two ways. The first way in defining its effect like yo have, Evil is the Violation of another's Free-will choice. But what about Evil as a substance, an actual 'thing' that exists in the universe or the mind of a creator'

    For evil to exist it would need an opposite like good or it wouldn't be able to qualify itself as a thing.

    Do you think evil is the result of human consciousness or does it extend from a substantial self existing principle called evil and its power administered by demons and other unpleasant entities.

    My own view on the personification of the Devil and Satan is that they are Judeo Christian fabrications and that ultimately evil does not exist because nothing in the universe has self essence apart from the creator. So where do we get this concept of good and evil from. Does it exist only on this plane, seemingly for the benefit of our souls development?


    Last edited by Floyd on Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Mercuriel Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:46 am

    Evil as an Essence is Void trying to go back to just that - Void - And Its Manifestation within Matter is simply a means back to Void...

    Void wishes to remain as Void as that is a perfect state - Whereas the Creation is a state in Flux in the middle of the Void. Void thereby manifests within Matter as Evil in an attempt to go back to Void.

    There are of course Personifications of Void and or Evil just as much as there are Personifications of Expansion and or Good...

    study


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    Post  Mercuriel Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:47 am

    Hicks ? What - Abraham Hicks ?

    Suspect


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    Floyd
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    Post  Floyd Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:55 am

    Mercuriel wrote:Hicks ? What - Abraham Hicks ?

    Suspect

    No merc, the guy in the OP..John Hick

    http://www.johnhick.org.uk/jsite/




    Im just using this to get the debate going..I dont necessarily agree or disagree with him. The notion of the vale of soul making is a poetical one that resonates with the notion that in life there is opportunity-to go backwards or forwards.


    Last edited by Floyd on Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Floyd Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:13 am

    Mercuriel wrote:Evil as an Essence is Void trying to go back to just that - Void - And Its Manifestation within Matter is simply a means back to Void...

    Void wishes to remain as Void as that is a perfect state - Whereas the Creation is a state in Flux in the middle of the Void. Void thereby manifests within Matter as Evil in an attempt to go back to Void.

    There are of course Personifications of Void and or Evil just as much as there are Personifications of Expansion and or Good...

    study

    But void by definition is nothing or no thing. The madhyamaka buddhists of the middle path call it sunyata, emptiness. Are you saying that evil is the same as void or that it uses void as a vehicle in the same why that good does. Two aspects. This is a bit strange because how could something exist in nothing. It could work however if ultimately good and evil do not exist but only exist apparently as some kind of Maya or illusion in the mind of the void or god or what have you.. So could you take it to be the case that the co dependent non existent illusions of good and evil co exist in a seemingly created flux?

    What about the idea that good and evil become more emphasized the further down the creational ladder they go, ie, in dense matter, good and evil as seeming expressions of the void, or emptiness, would seem more substantial than on a level of existence that is not available to the human eye. To a realm of the universe that has evolved further up the ladder?

    Eventually, on the upward scale, good and evil would become less distinct and then totally disappear all together as concepts or as things in themselves that seemingly existed. Back to the state of no thing?

    Jawdrop
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    Post  Sanicle Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:58 am

    Floyd wrote:I wanted to see what people think about the existence of good and evil or lack of existence.

    The modern theologian John Hicks reflected on a letter by poet Keats stating that we are all existing in the 'Vale of soul making'. That is if there were no experiences of good or evil we would be 'morally static' and our existence pointless with no chance of development.

    Good and evil, then, are necessary for the developments of ones soul on its journey back to the creator. This is the reason evil is allowed by God according to Hicks.

    Does evil have any substance though. Is there a Devil and a satan to accompany it. The Christian tradition would have us believe such a thing.

    Does this mean we should just sit back and let this 'apparent' evil do its thing or can we do something about it.


    Any thoughts peeps?

    I personally agree with that statement: "That is if there were no experiences of good or evil we would be 'morally static' and our existence pointless with no chance of development." But I also think we would become mentally and physically static as well. I was actually advised when I first started receiving inspired (?) writing back in the 70s when I asked why there's evil in the world that if there wasn't 'black' and 'white' expressions that "Heaven would fall on Heaven above" haha.

    But anyway, I do believe we all need something to test ourselves against in order to get us to expand our awareness, physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. As we do so, to over-simplify it all, we begin to realize that all division occurs as a result of lack of this understanding and compassion for others, mostly due to conditioned beliefs and fears. So I see 'evil' as anything and anyone who conditions us to fear and misunderstand other life-forms.

    At a broader 'God' level, I read this brilliant article a while ago and I've just been searching for it again (to no avail) so I could post a link to it here. The explanation of 'God' in that really rang true to me as it explained, in my view, how our spiritual perceptions of God play right into this 'Good' and 'Evil' thing as far as 'God' is concerned.

    To summarize it as best I can, this clever man spoke of the 'two aspects' of God ie the 'receptive' Void aspect and the 'active' Creative aspect, the former being promoted as being what leads to 'evil/darkness of spirit' while the creative aspect is light. The thing is the Void aspect just wants to 'go back to sleep' so to speak while the Creative aspect wants to keep expanding.

    Thus the Void aspect manifests in a 'hive mind' mentality. It's the aspect that leads us to believe in hierarchy and that the goal is to serve and return to the One God by moving 'up' through the levels of 'power'. The One at the top of the pyramid, and all the way down through the levels, rules and feeds on the energy of those below (just like we do in this reality eg food). If all below, through devotion, service and self-sacrifice to the Will of the One (as it's told to be), choose to 'return' to Him/Her, He/She can just accept all of their energy and go back to sleep. Although I guess one should/could say that the Void aspect is the feminine/receptive aspect of God.

    The other face of God is as the active Creator - male. When one chooses to be a co-creator with Him, thus not submitting to serving and being fed on by anyone 'above' us and 'returning' to the Source, we continue to manifest with 'Him' as immortal beings, always expanding in awareness. The multi-verse keeps on expanding giving us all new realities to explore with each other.

    Naturally those beings that instruct us to serve and sacrifice (ie give up our own free will to co-create with God) training us instead only to serve others 'above' us and 'return to Source' are those who promote devolution...returning to the Void....and not evolution. So that means religions, governments, NWO types etc who all teach us to serve authority and the community and try to restrict our creativity by blocking our awareness of our own free-will right to do 'something different' and not conform....always seeking new and better ways ... are what I would consider as 'evil' as it relates to the big picture.
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    Post  Brook Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:10 am

    Floyd wrote:I wanted to see what people think about the existence of good and evil or lack of existence.

    The modern theologian John Hicks reflected on a letter by poet Keats stating that we are all existing in the 'Vale of soul making'. That is if there were no experiences of good or evil we would be 'morally static' and our existence pointless with no chance of development.

    Good and evil, then, are necessary for the developments of ones soul on its journey back to the creator. This is the reason evil is allowed by God according to Hicks.

    Does evil have any substance though. Is there a Devil and a satan to accompany it. The Christian tradition would have us believe such a thing.

    Does this mean we should just sit back and let this 'apparent' evil do its thing or can we do something about it.


    Any thoughts peeps?

    What are your thoughts on this? According to Hicks as you have sited him do you follow this train of thought or perhaps otherwise?
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    Post  Floyd Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:28 am

    Brook wrote:
    Floyd wrote:I wanted to see what people think about the existence of good and evil or lack of existence.

    The modern theologian John Hicks reflected on a letter by poet Keats stating that we are all existing in the 'Vale of soul making'. That is if there were no experiences of good or evil we would be 'morally static' and our existence pointless with no chance of development.

    Good and evil, then, are necessary for the developments of ones soul on its journey back to the creator. This is the reason evil is allowed by God according to Hicks.

    Does evil have any substance though. Is there a Devil and a satan to accompany it. The Christian tradition would have us believe such a thing.

    Does this mean we should just sit back and let this 'apparent' evil do its thing or can we do something about it.


    Any thoughts peeps?

    What are your thoughts on this? According to Hicks as you have sited him do you follow this train of thought or perhaps otherwise?

    See post no 6 for the answer to that one.
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    Post  Brook Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:44 am

    The notion of the vale of soul making is a poetical one that resonates
    with the notion that in life there is opportunity-to go backwards or
    forwards.

    So do you agree with his Irenaean theodicy? Or perhaps "just a little bit?

    The Irenaean theodicy is a theodicy designed to respond to the problem of evil. The purpose of the theodicy is to justify the existence of an omnibenevolent and omnipotent God in the face of evil and suffering in the world.

    There have been criticisms of the Irenaean theodicy. Its universalistic approach has been called unjust, making morality on earth irrelevant. In addition, the benefit of suffering has been called into question, with suggestions that some suffering does not help humans to develop morally and that the magnitude of suffering in the world is excessive. Others have argued that suffering cannot be a legitimate form of love.
    Floyd
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    Post  Floyd Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:47 am

    Brook wrote:
    The notion of the vale of soul making is a poetical one that resonates
    with the notion that in life there is opportunity-to go backwards or
    forwards.

    So do you agree with his Irenaean theodicy? Or perhaps "just a little bit?

    The Irenaean theodicy is a theodicy designed to respond to the problem of evil. The purpose of the theodicy is to justify the existence of an omnibenevolent and omnipotent God in the face of evil and suffering in the world.

    There have been criticisms of the Irenaean theodicy. Its universalistic approach has been called unjust, making morality on earth irrelevant. In addition, the benefit of suffering has been called into question, with suggestions that some suffering does not help humans to develop morally and that the magnitude of suffering in the world is excessive. Others have argued that suffering cannot be a legitimate form of love.

    I was simply using it as a starting point for a debate on the nature of Good and Evil.

    I am happy to see that debate has now begun in earnest.

    A devils advocate so to speak.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaean_theodicy
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    Post  Brook Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:53 am

    Magnitude of suffering...

    Another criticism is that the magnitude of suffering is excessive, and that people could develop into God's likeness with less suffering in the world. It is argued that human development could take place without events such as the holocaust. Furthermore, it is noted that some people seem to suffer more than others do. According to the Irenaean theodicy, this would mean that God wants some people to attain his likeness more than others?

    What about Love? I hear it's all there is...... or is it?
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    Post  Floyd Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:00 am

    [/quote]
    Sanicle wrote:

    But anyway, I do believe we all need something to test ourselves against in order to get us to expand our awareness, physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. As we do so, to over-simplify it all, we begin to realize that all division occurs as a result of lack of this understanding and compassion for others, mostly due to conditioned beliefs and fears. So I see 'evil' as anything and anyone who conditions us to fear and misunderstand other life-forms.


    Sanicle, are you saying that through understanding and compassion we can overcome evil, or good can vanquish evil, therefore both good and evil do actually exist on some level?
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    Post  Blacklight43 Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:42 am

    "There is no such thing as good and evil, it is only your perception that makes it so"

    This was given to me in a meditative state not long ago.
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    Post  Brook Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:00 am

    No good and evil? Explain this....

    The Vale of Soul Making: Good and Evil Bengal-famine-1943

    War Refugees Face Starvation

    The Vale of Soul Making: Good and Evil 6a00e55188bf7a88340105370105e0970b-800wi

    Holocaust victims..mass graves

    The Vale of Soul Making: Good and Evil Prisoner_mass_grave%282%29The Vale of Soul Making: Good and Evil Holo-corpses

    I'd say there's plenty of Evil to go around.....

    "In order to live, man must act; in order to act, he must make choices; in
    order to make choices, he must define a code of values; in order to
    define a code of values, he must know what he is and where he is – i.e.
    he must know his own nature (including his means of knowledge) and the
    nature of the universe in which he acts – i.e. he needs metaphysics,
    epistemology, ethics, which means: philosophy. He cannot escape from
    this need; his only alternative is whether the philosophy guiding him is
    to be chosen by his mind or by chance."




    "You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality."


    ~Ayn Rand~
    Floyd
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    Post  Floyd Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:05 am

    Blacklight43 wrote:"There is no such thing as good and evil, it is only your perception that makes it so"

    This was given to me in a meditative state not long ago.

    Hi blacklight..can you expand on this. What would you call a small child knocked down by a car and killed or a war crime of some variety.

    Would you say it was evil or something else?
    Cheers.
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    Post  Floyd Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:28 am

    For something to exist in itself it has to have its own self essence. It would have to exist essentially and not rely on something else to warrant its existence. Evil, by its nature is only comprehended in relation to its opposite, good. Likewise for good to exist independently with its own self essence it would not rely on the comprehension of something else for its own existence.

    It follows that both good and evil rely on each other for the understanding and conceptualisation of one another that neither of them can be said to independently exist in their own state of self essence.

    Therefore neither can exist as a thing in themselves. In that sense you could argue that good and evil dont exist. In fact some hindu and Buddhist philosophies would go even further and say there is nothing in the universe that has self essence therefore nothing essentially exists.

    Is this what you were getting at Backlight?
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    Post  THEeXchanger Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:45 am

    perhaps, your lifetimes are measured

    maybe the circumstances of this lifetime, are much better, than the previous one

    after_all, you do play out monads

    (about 30 major ones, with others)

    and, ironically; you play out both sides of the equations,

    until you learn the lessons attached to them

    --some folks, who are here now, straving to death, ruined another planet

    - perhaps, just being able to be - is a lesson ?
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    Post  Blacklight43 Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:07 pm

    Floyd wrote:For something to exist in itself it has to have its own self essence. It would have to exist essentially and not rely on something else to warrant its existence. Evil, by its nature is only comprehended in relation to its opposite, good. Likewise for good to exist independently with its own self essence it would not rely on the comprehension of something else for its own existence.

    It follows that both good and evil rely on each other for the understanding and conceptualisation of one another that neither of them can be said to independently exist in their own state of self essence.

    Therefore neither can exist as a thing in themselves. In that sense you could argue that good and evil dont exist. In fact some hindu and Buddhist philosophies would go even further and say there is nothing in the universe that has self essence therefore nothing essentially exists.

    Is this what you were getting at Backlight?

    Exactly.
    And by the way,my perception of atrocities is indeed evil. So I guess until I can perceive it all as a play and everyone acting out their parts in it..I still have much to learn.


    Last edited by Blacklight43 on Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : just to complete a thought.)
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    Post  Floyd Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:44 pm

    Blacklight43 wrote:
    Floyd wrote:

    Is this what you were getting at Backlight?

    Exactly.

    Thought this is what you were getting at.
    Cheers.
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    Post  Mercuriel Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:49 pm

    Floyd wrote:But void by definition is nothing or no thing. The madhyamaka buddhists of the middle path call it sunyata, emptiness. Are you saying that evil is the same as void or that it uses void as a vehicle in the same why that good does. Two aspects. This is a bit strange because how could something exist in nothing. It could work however if ultimately good and evil do not exist but only exist apparently as some kind of Maya or illusion in the mind of the void or god or what have you.. So could you take it to be the case that the co dependent non existent illusions of good and evil co exist in a seemingly created flux ?

    Well - First We must look at what VOID actually is...

    Void can be said to be NO THING of course but this is only as a state that has chosen to remain as NO THING. In fact an Eternity ago - A Part of It wished to be SOME THING and that has been Prime Creator and the Omniverse ever since knowing Itself as the I AM or the Is-ness.

    "I think - Therefore I am..."

    VOID is un-potentiated space that has not selected a state of Being and yet all states of Being reside within It to be chosen as a Super-position state once Awareness manifests It into Creation.

    Floyd wrote:What about the idea that good and evil become more emphasized the further down the creational ladder they go, ie, in dense matter, good and evil as seeming expressions of the void, or emptiness, would seem more substantial than on a level of existence that is not available to the human eye. To a realm of the universe that has evolved further up the ladder ?

    Eventually, on the upward scale, good and evil would become less distinct and then totally disappear all together as concepts or as things in themselves that seemingly existed. Back to the state of no thing ?

    Exactly - Only as One moves down deeper into Vibration and Density does the Polarization of Good and Evil manifest as We've come to know It.

    To do so - Prime Creator as an Aspect and through Co-ordinate Representation - Falls from It's former Estate - To know Itself as - Itself...

    Wink

    Singularity is Integrated and Integrated means that through balancing Positive and Negative - One has reached Singularity where All is simply - Prime Creator...


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    Post  Carol Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:57 pm

    I'm so fed up with the world-wide BS that going into a cave, and staying there in an altered state of meditation until death, is quite appealing. I once knew this woman Buddhist monk who did just that and even built herself a box to meditate in so she wouldn't fall down whenever she fell asleep.

    I just don't see how people can get free of this matrix without real concerted effort and a lot of help from the other side. The lessons of detachment and love are not easy when faced with the nasty side of various individuals. Their little drama "feed me", "feed me" hooks pop out all over trying to latch on and pull one back down into darkness.


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    It is the flash of a firefly in the night, the breath of a buffalo in the wintertime. It is the little shadow which runs across the grass and loses itself in the sunset.

    With deepest respect ~ Aloha & Mahalo, Carol
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    Post  orthodoxymoron Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:24 am

    My current version of 'going into a cave' is to imagine that I am now living in a One-Mile Long Asteroid in Geosynchronous Orbit Over the City of London. The asteroid has a Cray Supercomputer with Fast InterPlaNet, and a Fisk Pipe-Organ in a 15ft wide by 40ft long by 40ft high office-apartment. I'm sharing this Bad@$$teroid with Six Very Eager and Beautiful Goddesses. I figure that if I get married and divorced six times a week, I won't have to commit adultery -- and then all of us will rest on the Sabbath! We'll all sing the Choral Works of Bach and Handel as a spiritual preparation for our physical activities! This is my version of being a Monk -- and withdrawing from the world! One more thing. Said asteroid is capable of 1% the speed of light! If this delusion were actually a reality, it would be very cool, but it would also make one a sitting-duck in a star-war scenario. So perhaps I should just keep doing what I'm doing right here on Earth. But seriously, there really is Good and Evil, but there is also really something to Situation Ethics. Joseph Fletcher once told me (in essence) that Christianity was BS. I only partially agreed. The Historical Jesus is problematic, but the Teachings of Jesus are very useful in defining Good and Evil, and I continue to attempt to be a follower of the words attributed to Jesus Christ. But who knows, some or most of the words might be the wisdom of Isis. I just don't know, but I think that any discussion of Good and Evil should be Christocentic in an Exoteric, Esoteric, and Eschatological Sense.
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    Post  Floyd Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:57 am

    THEeXchanger wrote:perhaps, your lifetimes are measured

    maybe the circumstances of this lifetime, are much better, than the previous one

    after_all, you do play out monads

    (about 30 major ones, with others)

    and, ironically; you play out both sides of the equations,

    until you learn the lessons attached to them

    --some folks, who are here now, straving to death, ruined another planet

    - perhaps, just being able to be - is a lesson ?


    Hi Susan. You are saying that reincarnation and karma are tied to our concepts of good and evil. In other words we get more than one chance to develop our 'soul making'

    Good and Evil do not ultimately exist in themselves but seemingly exist in the vortex of apparent manifestation. We are effected by them and effect others with actions of them until a point is reached where the effects of both are nullified and a 'liberation' from the cause and effects of good and evil is reached. Perhaps at that stage, a soul could exist on a level where such divisions do not exist even seemingly. A stage of being and existence where the play between good and bad is absent?

      Current date/time is Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:44 pm