Calling All Carnivores

blue roller wrote:
Once you no longer fertilize your grain fields with animal manure ,you have to use artificial fertlisers .

Yes , I know all about that stuff . More than your one sided, skewed distortions of the facts .

So if you want just grains you had better be sure you have a way to fertilize them without using petro chemicals . How are you going to do that?

The compost piles and growing beds on Wilt Bonsall's farm might lead one to believe that he is an organic farmer. However, careful observation would reveal not only an absence of bags of chemical fertilizer, but also containers of bone meal (ground-up bones) and dried blood. Nor will you find a pile of animal manure anywhere. In fact, for the Last twenty years, Bonsall has been farming veganically, a term and method new even to many vegetarians. He's taken organic growing one step further by purposefully avoiding the use of any animal by-products.

So, who's even eating organic foods these days? Apparently far more people than ever. Twenty-three percent of shoppers surveyed by Packer, Vance Publications reported buying organic produce in a six-month period. Mainstream supermarkets must recognize this trend because nearly half of them have joined health food stores and co-ops in offering selections of organic produce. Few health or environmentally conscious people would argue that growing our food with chemicals is more desirable than using organic methods. There are many reasons why vegetarians should buy and support organic options. However, we must also realize that our purchases in many cases help support animal agriculture.

Why do organic growers rely on animal-based fertilizers such as manure and slaughterhouse by-products? They are used for their fertilizer value including essential nutrients such as nitrogen, phosphorous, and potassium; and manure's organic matter helps to improve soil structure. Historically, it has been readily available in rural communities for free or low cost, and growers who also raise animals have their own abundant supply. Organic gardeners and farmers view the breaking down of animal products in a garden a natural component of the organic process.

Although commercial organic growers are encouraged to obtain manure from "organic farms," this is not required for organic certification. Home gardeners are only likely to obtain organic manure if they live in rural areas, but according to Howard Scheps, Master Gardener on the board of directors of Project Grow in Ann Arbor, Michigan, many of them purchase manure originating from non-organic factory-farmed animals.

The exploding population of livestock in factory farms has resulted in a parallel increase in animal waste, and this excess manure is a tremendous problem. Livestock in the United States produce 230,000 pounds of manure per second, and nitrogen from these wastes is converted into ammonia and nitrates which leach into ground and surface water causing contamination of wells, rivers and streams.

"The factory farmer has a waste product that he has to get rid of, and I want him to bear the full cost of the ground, water, and air pollution it creates. If the expense causes him hardship, then maybe he will try something less environmentally destructive such as growing brussel sprouts," said Scheps. "When we take or buy manure from animal husbandry farms, they profit. When we get it for free, we are at the very least ameliorating their responsibility and burden. Avoiding manure is the most effective 'free market' method of forcing ranchers to internalize these caustic and expensive by products (water and air pollution caused by cattle waste) which are described by economists as 'externalities.'

What about manure that comes from a cow living in a traditional country barn? In order for a dairy farm to be commercially viable, many animals must exist on a limited amount of land and a waste problem will therefore exist. Although the conditions may not be quite as harsh as they are on factory farms, dairy cows are still forced to maintain pregnancy - lactation cycles, and their mate calves are usually sold to veal producers soon after birth. When they are no longer considered productive, most dairy cows are slaughtered for their flesh and skin. When we take manure from these farms, we support the exploitation of animals.

But How Do You Get Your Nitrogen?

The first question that many people ask when thinking about gardening without the use of animal products is "How can we compensate for not using manure?" Bonsall says that asking such a question is like asking a vegetarian how he or she gets enough protein.

Asking the "compensation question" implies that using animal products for food or fertilizer is optimal. Vegetarians know there are many reasons why a plant-based diet is superior to a meat-based diet, and the ethical reasons for veganics are fairly obvious. Many of us, however, are unaware of all of the other benefits associated with using only plant-based fertilizers.

Fertility And Land Utilization

Inch by Inch, row by row

I'm going to make this garden grow

All it takes is a rake and a hoe

And a piece of fertile ground...

(Pete Seeger)

Soil fertility does not originate from animals; it comes from plants at the bottom of the food chain. Nor does human nutrition originate from animals. When non-vegetarians eat flesh, they obtain nutrients that come from whatever that animal was fed. Obtaining nutrients in this manner is not only unhealthy, but also an inefficient utilization of energy and resources. Meat, for example, contains absolutely none of the beneficial fiber from the animal's diet, and its protein level is too high. Likewise, when grass is "filtered" through a cow, most of its nitrogen is lost in its urine.

Bonsall explained that if you take grass that could go to feed a cow and instead put it directly into your compost pile, then you can get all the nitrogen you need, in addition to other nutrients not even found in manure. Using the grass yields more organic matter than manure, and subsequently more fertilizer. Tapping fertility at its source is simply a more efficient way to obtain nutrients.

Eliot Coleman, author of The New Organic Gardener (1996), has gardened organically for more than 40 years, the last 15 of which he has used veganic methods. He was given a grant in the early '90s to experiment with supplying all the fertilizer needs of a commercial organic farm through composted plant-matter rather than animal manure. Through his research, Coleman determined the number of acres of hay needed to fertilize one acre of food crops. He found a one-to-one ratio of compost-producing ground to food-producing land, and this was in Maine, where the soil is rocky and relatively hard to work.

According to EarthSave International, if animal manure had been used instead of hay, then the space required to fertilize that one acre of garden would be approximateLy four times greater. This takes into account land needed for grazing and crops for animals. Overgrazing has led to erosion and the creation of deserts throughout the world. The World Watch Institute reported that each pound of feedlot steak "costs" about 35 pounds of eroded American topsoit. And what about all of that land needed to grow crops for the animals? The huge amounts of chemical fertilizers and pesticides used in the production of animal feed crops end up in surface and ground waters.

Accordingly, organic growers who rely on cows for fertilizer require much more land than those who use veganics. And as the human population increases, dependence on animals for food will result in more forests being cleared and wildlife habitats destroyed in order to create yet more room for grazing and crops for animals. Already, more than 25 percent of Central American rainforests have been destroyed in order to create pasture Land for cattle.

There Are Even More Reasons To Go Veganic!

Coleman's interest in veganics does not stem from vegetarianism, for he is not vegetarian. He maintains that his interest in veganics comes from the practicality of growing his own soil fertility as opposed to relying on an outside source for manure.

Manure from factory farms continues to be sold commercially, but it tends to be expensive due to the costs associated with treatment, packaging and transportation. It is ironic that manure can be costly in spite of its overabundance! Another reason for the high price of manure, says Scheps, is that the public perceives animal manure as a necessity which manifests itself in demand for the product.

According to Scheps, the growing interest in organic gardening and farming is likely to result in a rise in demand for "organic" manure. He believes that this demand may eventually exceed supply, and that it will no longer be available at the current organic / commercial markup price.

Balanced Soil, Healthy Plants

Taking an excessive amount of certain vitamin supplements can lead to an imbalance and increase susceptibility to disease. Likewise, many growers believe that applying an excess of any amenity - plant or animal based - can potentially result in a soil imbalance, leading to unhealthy plants and insect problems. Coleman and Scheps, while not being able to explain why, have found that veganic amendments do not result in the insect problems that typically plague the gardens of their (non-veganic) organic peers.

Homesteading pioneers Helen and Scott Nearing, best known their book Living the Good Life, gardened veganically for decades. Freya Dinshah, Vice President of the American Vegan Society, recalled a gardening class taught by Helen where an organic grower asked for suggestions on how to deal with insects. Helen was unable to provide an answer because in all her years of farming, she had never experienced the problem.

"Overfeeding the soil can be both wasteful and harmful," wrote Australian veganic gardener and author of From Soil to Psyche, David Phillips, Ph.D., in a 1973 edition of Ahimsa magazine. "To Lay on a heavy thickness of ... manure witl only do to the plant what an excess of food will do to the body - it will cause over-stimulated growth for a time, and then the imbalance witl result in pathological conditions."

Scheps believes that gardeners have the choice to either enhance or control nature. People can control weeds, for example, by killing them with an herbicide. However, this chemical a destroys microorganisms in the soil, which eventually Leads to unhealthy plants that are more susceptible to disease. The alternative that he views as an enhancement of nature would be to use physical barriers to prevent weeds (i.e. mulching, weed mats, cover crop, solarizing the soil), remove the weed, or simply live with it.

Even gardens with balanced soil may have unwanted insects, but Scheps has found that in such gardens, predators of these insects eventually come. For instance, aphids left alone eventually attract ladybugs which eat them. Unwanted insects may even become beneficial, said Scheps. For example, the parsley worm feeds on parsley leaves, but after the larva turns into the black swallowtail butterfly, it pollinates plants.

Likewise, food grown in balanced soil will not necessarily be blemish free. Scheps believes that the issue is a question of economic damage, and he points out that everyone has a different threshold for imperfection. A home gardener might not mind a few little holes in a leaf of lettuce, but a commercial grower is likely to view that same lettuce as unacceptable for commercial sale.

Scheps points out that rotating crops, cover cropping, non-monocultural practices, avoiding chemicals, and constantly adding organic matter are also critical components in a balanced garden.

Health Issues

The manure from most domestic animals harbors intestinal and parasitic diseases, and may contain antibiotic residues. According to the Centers for Disease Control, ruminant animals are known to harbor E.coli 0157:H7 in their intestines, and this can be transmitted to humans via their feces (see E.coli: New Concerns). Even proponents of manure fertilizers agree that especially raw manure poses a health threat, and they advise that it be handled cautiously.

In Deadly Feasts: Tracking the Secrets of a Terrifying New Plague, Pulitzer Prize-winning author Richard Rhodes (1993), describes how Bovine Spongiform Encephatopathy (BSE) may lead to Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (CJD) in humans via bone meal used in agricultural production of fruits, vegetables, and grains for human consumption.

Dr. Joseph Gibbs, the U.S. government's chief researcher on BSE and CJD reported on the television news magazine Dateline (3-14-97) that the few people he's known personally who've died of CJD had one unusual thing in common - they all used bone meal. He pointed out that a relationship between bone meal and CJD, however, has not been scientifically validated.

Even though it has not been proven that bone meal is a health threat, The Royal Horticulture Society in Britain now recommends that gardeners wear masks white using this product. In the U.S., the rendering industry (which makes bone meal) has declared the product safe for use.

The Future of Veganics

"The greatest drawback in veganic agriculture today," said Bonsall, 'is that it is hard to find information on the subject." Gardeners are growing veganically all over the world (many of them not even aware of the term!), but there appears to be a tack of communication between these people. English author Geoffrey Rudd coined the term "veganic" almost 50 years ago, and the method was popularized by Rosa DaLzieL O'Brien in the '40s. Both O'Brien and her son have written books on veganics, but surprisingly, many growers using only plant-based fertilizers are unfamiliar with their works.

Many vegetarians who grow vegetables in their backyard gardens are probably already using veganic methods. It is just about impossible to locate such produce in supermarkets, however, and this is likely the case all over the world. Pauline Lloyd is entering her third season as a veganic gardener in Great Britain, and she said that although organic produce is readily available in her community, the people she knows who grow veganic food do so only for their own use.

Twenty years ago it was hard to find organic produce and vegan shampoo, but these items are now readily available because as the demand increased, the market responded. There are probably some organic farmers who are already growing veganically, although they may not be advertising their produce as such. If these growers start advertising their food as organic/veganic, then it will help stimulate consumer discussion, and result in a demand. Good things are worth working for, and if we not only practice but also educate, then we may someday find kale and cucumbers in the grocery store labeled "V" for veganic.

https://www.navs-online.org/veganic_gardening/gardening/plant_agriculture.php


http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/plantbased-fertilizers-for-organic-gardens.html

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Coincidentally....it seems the marijuana growers are now using Veganic fertilizers to grow better crops....Go figure?

https://www.google.com/search?q=+Veganic&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Regarding the idea of the need of fertilizers ( chemical, animal, mineral .. )  here is an article that gives quite a good insight on the subject by making a comparison with people's diet.

What is Fertilizer?


Simply put, fertilizer is plant food.
And to really understand what is fertilizer, what's in it and how it works, let's compare it to people food.
What food do people need? You know the three main food groups, right?
Protein, carbohydrates, and fat or oils...

What Is Fertilizer Made Of?

Plants also have three main "food groups", or rather "macro nutrients", the three elements that make up the bulk of a fertilizer: NPK.
You may have seen those letters on fertilizer bags. They stand for nitrogen (N), phosphorus (P) and potassium (kalium in other languages, hence the chemical symbol K).
Plants need a lot of that stuff. NPK needs to be available to the plant in the right ratio, just like we need a good balance of carbohydrates, protein and fats. (We're not looking at the latest fad diet, we are talking about a balanced diet here, ok?)

Now, many people grow plants in the belief that all they need to give them is water and fertilizer. Water and NPK, at a correct ratio.

That would be the same as bringing up your kids on instant meals or meal replacement shakes that contain nothing but powdered protein, carbohydrates and fat, in the correct ratio.

Do you think your kids will grow strong and healthy, with a good immune system, if you feed them just that? Neither do I.
What Is In Fertilizer With Trace Elements?

People also need minerals and vitamins. And so do plants. They need "trace elements" like Copper and Iron and Zinc and many more, and other substances, in small amounts. Just like our minerals and vitamins.

You can buy bags or bottles of fertilizers that have "added trace elements".

So now you are feeding your kids protein shakes and vitamin tablets. Hm. The ideal diet? Not really...
Ok, what else have we got?

What Is Organic Fertilizer?

There are natural, organic fertilizers that aren't made by mixing chemicals together. Organic fertilizers are made by mixing natural ingredients, ingredients that are naturally high in N or P or K or all of them, and that also contain trace elements.

Chicken poo or blood and bone meal or fish extract and things like that. They contain the NPK in varying ratios, and some trace elements, and maybe other gobbledigook like growth factors, auxins, macromolecules, enzymes…

A bit like mixing herbal supplements and vegetable extracts and the like with your meal replacement diet. Certainly better than just NPK.
However, it's still easily possible to get the balance wrong, especially if you don't know what exactly is in that bag and what exactly your plants need.

Maybe it's theoretically possible to grow reasonably healthy kids on a diet like that, if you do add enough different herb, fruit and vegetable extracts, in a high quality form where most of the goodness in them is actually preserved. And if you really understand what you are doing there, what EXACTLY the kids need!

But it is getting a bit difficult now, isn't it? Tricky and expensive...
Many people think they have to learn all that to fertilize plants correctly.

What Is The Best Fertilizer?

But why not bring up your kids on a wholesome diet with plenty of organic fruit and vegetables instead? Makes more sense, doesn't it? And I bet the kids will be happier and healthier for it.

Plants are happier and healthier on a wholesome, natural diet, too. And they can't get that from a fertilizer bag. Period.
They get it from a living, healthy soil, soil with lots of organic matter, teeming with worms and beneficial microorganisms.

People who eat a balanced, wholesome, organic diet with plenty of fresh food and vegetables are healthy. They don't need extra protein shakes and no vitamin pills or supplements and they rarely need to see a doctor.

Plants grown in rich, balanced, healthy and living soils are just the same. No need to buy bags of expensive fertilizers all the time, no need to spray this and that to battle pests and diseases.

Plants have immune systems, too. Really. They are good at fighting those diseases and pests themselves, provided the plants are strong and healthy.
In a naturally grown permaculture garden nature takes care of all the plant nutrition issues for you! But you have to give nature a chance to do that.

http://www.tropicalpermaculture.com/what-is-fertilizer.html

Hence the idea at the core of permaculture of self-fertilizing gardens which are by far my favorite choice. They integrate themselves beautifully in nature by respecting her fully. So beautiful they look like eden gardens where plants are happy to grow in good company.



In self-fertilizing gardens, the soil is seen as a living organism that needs air, water and nourishment in order to thrive. The priority is to protect and care for the soil and the surrounding ecosystem, while also reducing the amount of time and hard work spent in the garden. Self-fertilizing gardens include:

   Permanent raised beds
   Permanent soil cover
   Surface compost
   Diversity of plants and families in each bed
   The presence of living roots at all times in the beds (e.g. perennials plants, overlapping crops)
   The use of the vertical plane (e.g. climbing plants in the centre of the beds)
   Biodiversity settings (e.g. ponds, hedges, trees)

Self-fertilizing gardens work directly with natural processes to maintain fertility and equilibrium, so no inputs are used in the gardens, and we avoid interference with the natural cycles of the soil and the plants:

   No chemicals (pesticides, synthetic fertilizers, hormones)
   No tilling
   No digging (aside from the first year)
   No bare soil
   No monoculture
   No compaction
   No added compost (with the possible exception of demanding transplants)
   No treating plants (i.e. for insects, illness, etc).
   No pulling out plants (except for root vegetables)

Avoid harmful action in the garden

Let the organisms do the work for which they exist.

Care for the soil
- No compaction
- No tilling, never work the soil
- Don’t bury plant residues: leave them on the surface

Don’t rest the soil (no fallow)
- Without roots, the bacteria and micro-organisms will die
- Without micro-organisms, the soil is dead
- Only a dead, forced-fed and unbalanced soil needs rest
- On the contrary, we must keep the soil active, like us!

No external inputs
- No pesticides
- No fertilizer (chemical, mineral, animal, compost, lime, basalt)
- No inputs of mulch or leaves from outside the garden area (initially you can use local sources of leaves and mulch if needed, but make sure you plant perennials by the garden that will later provide mulch from your own land)
- No wood ashes
- No compost (except in the transplantation hole for demanding plants)
- No purposeful additions of allies (i.e. natural predators)

Never regulate a deficiency
- By correcting it, we create a new one

Use plants that are indicators
- For acid soil, use for example mustard and buckwheat (cut it without burying it)

Accept intruders and some loss of plants
- Accept certain plant losses without treating with organic pesticides, as this will help a more complex biodiversity become reinstated
- Only treat with organic pesticides when you consider the losses significant or interruptive (e.g. when at least 10% of the crops are affected)

No sprinkled water
- The plants should be watered with a drip-irrigation system, or by using a hose to water at the base of the plants. If we sprinkle water on the leaves and stems, this can lead to fungal growth.

Avoid buying any unnecessary materials

Source your plants and seeds
- No use of hybrids (if you want to keep seeds)
- No use of Genetically Modified Organisms (GMO)

read more http://www.goveganic.net/article69.html

Love from me
mudra

Soil health is the sum of ALL life from the bottom of the food chain to the' top' . Its all related. Your body is an assemblage of micro organisms ! Biological Lego Bricks.

That untouched virgin soil does not happen overnight , it is the product of MANY inputs . Its the life you cant see with the naked eye that is most important though.

Healthy soil needs Iodine ,for example. But that comes from the sea in the form of Rain via methyl iodide , a by product/waste gas produced by sea weed.
Methyl Iodide seeds rain ! Rain forest Trees release Volatile oils to encourage rain fall. We live next to one. You can see it happening in the early morning when the trees make dew precipitate .

That's just one example. Plants host and build relationships with billions of micro organisms in order to feed. They Harvest with their root and leaf systems just like farmers do. They shelter and nurture flesh eating microbes to secure manure or whatever you choose to call it. Soil health comes from decomposing organic matter as well as minerals. But sooner or later you are going to have to accept that flesh eats flesh. Life eats life .

Leaves are solar panels ,roots are in many ways like fibre optic cable. The Sun is a power source .

This is a massive subject .Much like a rain forest . A vast complex interactive environment .

If you guys want to go Vegan on Moral as well as personal choice grounds you are setting yourselves up for an argument that judges the natural world and tries to redefine it . JUST LIKE JEHOVAH DOES.

Some vegans just seem to be on a self righteous moral crusade that abandons reason and common sense.

Jehovah is at war with mother nature .Just look around you if you dont believe me.

"the earth is the lords and all that dwells there in"

No Jehovah .The MOTHER Earth is the people's and you are a parasite .

I mean seriously . DO you really expect me to shoo away the flesh Eating Echidna's when they come to dig up termites ? Its their garden as much as mine . Termites eat tree's . But they too are part of the ecosystem here and they have a vital part to play in maintaining soil health. Deal with it.
Do I have a problem with Black snakes hunting rats and mice under my house ? Hell no I dont. Help yourself.

The whole system would collapse without these creatures .

Re 'fertilizer' I think we are getting bogged down in semantics a bit. When a bird poops on my vegetable patch , that's fertilizer. When the worms are thick in the ground , they are fertilizing my soil by eating decomposing organic matter . If you want to get a very quick indicator of soil health ,just count the worms in a handful of soil.

Tree leaves are mulch . Organic dust particles drifting through the air and settling in the grass are mulch.

I dont look at my garden in isolation. I look at it as part of a much larger system . We live next to national park so we have many birds of many species passing through. Pooping ,singing, nesting and reproducing. They contribute to my gardens health too. Big time .

Echidna's ,ants and termites aerate the soil so i dont have to dig it . Along with cicadas and trap door spiders .

Nature rocks .Let her do her stuff and she will take care of your stuff too.

blue roller wrote:Re 'fertilizer' I think we are getting bogged down in semantics a bit. When a bird poops on my vegetable patch , that's fertilizer. When the worms are thick in the ground , they are fertilizing my soil by eating decomposing organic matter . If you want to get a very quick indicator of soil health ,just count the worms in a handful of soil.

Tree leaves are mulch . Organic dust particles drifting through the air and settling in the grass are mulch.

I dont look at my garden in isolation. I look at it as part of a much larger system . We live next to national park so we have many birds of many species passing through. Pooping ,singing, nesting and reproducing. They contribute to my gardens health too. 9Big time .

Echidna's ,ants and termites aerate the soil so i dont have to dig it . Along with cicadas and trap door spiders .

Nature rocks .Let her do her stuff and she will take care of your stuff too.

It's a good way to look at it Blue Roller not separating your garden from nature but understanding how that one piece is part and related to Mother Earth entire body.

And by the way you have all my respect for contributing to life by nurturing that piece of land you now live on while creating a self sustaining way of living  

Love from me

mudra

I do use some blood and bone , one bag a year , just to fire up the compost heap a bit faster . Then maybe a bag or two of Chicken Poo.
Cow poo I steal from the Paddocks next door on the odd occasion .

The main source is composted veg/leaf/mulch/sawdust/chips and the piece de resistance , Sea weed from beaches nearby .Van loads of the stuff.

OR I just dump the mulch and seaweed under the trees and on the beds and let the worms/microbiota do the hard work for me.

Anyone who says they dont need inputs is telling porkies . Unless they happen to be planting deep rich soil . Many dont have that luxury so they have to build the soil up and that is not a crime for crying out loud.

Its amazing how quickly the purists infiltrate and distort the important message in genuine movements. They end up discouraging wider acceptance because like religious fanatics they Always have to one up everyone around them .Boring.

Truth is you do the best you can with the stuff you have and the local flora and fauna. You probably cant grow lemons in Canada unless you have a heated green house . You cant grow some European fruit tree's in Oz unless you get frost in winter .

If your soil is just sand your going to have to introduce somehow , lots of organic matter to hold moisture and build fertility . Some plants do grow well in poor soil though . Maybe not the ones that will provide food though.

This one size fits all Dogma stuff just does not help. Sorry, but in the real world you dont get ideal conditions very often.

Inputs have to be scaled for the results you are trying to obtain . In the old days fields were rotated between grazing ,cropping ,fallow and root cropping to avoid disease , put fertility back in the soil and turn in the organic matter that was not harvested and used.

I know this thread may appear to be drifting off topic but the thing is our environment largely determines our food choices .

I mean if a Vegan wandered in to an Eskimo Community and asked if they were eating meat , killing animals for food and using their skins , the Eskimo would be like "are you taking the Piss Lady ?" Talk about an entrapping question .

In any extreme northern climes your going to struggle if you cant eat meat . Its not impossible but its not going to be easy either .

Now I seem to be getting type cast potentially as a big stock proponent but no , I am not saying that at all. Far better for most communities to have a diverse range of smaller animals to help keep the soil cycling in a healthy way. Ducks, Geese, chickens ,Pigs, goats, Rabbits . And then the wild component encouraged to share the bounty . I dont net my trees . I take my fair share along with fruit bats ,parrots, and any other bird that needs a snack. In return they take care of the bugs and poop for payment . Birds really appreciate being welcome to a share . Now they say hello when they fly by . Nice.

Think I am Joking ? That's because you don't coexist with nature.

I watch the wild ducks that nest and breed next to our Pond , hang out and chat with our domestic chickens. They look out for each others young .
Actually the whole Bird community looks out for the Ducklings when they hatch because they are far more vulnerable than most bird species until they can fly . That's what most people dont see . The mother and father ducks know they will be lucky to successfully raise more than two of the eight ducklings they hatch , but they dont seem to grieve . They just accept it is part of their Life .

These wild Ducks poop all over our lawn every year as they eat our grass . We love to see them and their poop is most welcome .

mudra wrote:

blue roller wrote:Re 'fertilizer' I think we are getting bogged down in semantics a bit. When a bird poops on my vegetable patch , that's fertilizer. When the worms are thick in the ground , they are fertilizing my soil by eating decomposing organic matter . If you want to get a very quick indicator of soil health ,just count the worms in a handful of soil.

Tree leaves are mulch . Organic dust particles drifting through the air and settling in the grass are mulch.

I dont look at my garden in isolation. I look at it as part of a much larger system . We live next to national park so we have many birds of many species passing through. Pooping ,singing, nesting and reproducing. They contribute to my gardens health too. 9Big time .

Echidna's ,ants and termites aerate the soil so i dont have to dig it . Along with cicadas and trap door spiders .

Nature rocks .Let her do her stuff and she will take care of your stuff too.

It's a good way to look at it Blue Roller not separating your garden from nature but understanding how that one piece is part and related to Mother Earth entire body.

And by the way you have all my respect for contributing to life by nurturing that piece of land you now live on while creating a self sustaining way of living  

Love from me

mudra

Thank you for your kind words Mudra .

You know I did a very rough calculation of my food input to get a fix on where I personally am at in terms of consumption which would make me about 30% fruitarian , 20-25% Vegan, 35% vegetarian and 10% Carnivore ! It shifts a bit of course depending on the time of year .
My Daughter shockingly is way to high on the meat scale but I cant force feed her what she wont eat .

My wife only needs a very little meat and could easily go without . My appetite for meat is reducing as I age but I could not cut it out completely at this stage without struggling . My DNA profile is way to hunter gatherer to manage without it .

What does give me hope is watching the huge rise in organic food consumption here . Lots of dairy farmers are making the switch and that's good for everyone even if you cant eat dairy . Even with the economy being as bad as it is ,people are prepared to pay more for quality food because they see the better value in it . We cant afford health insurance but healthy diet is the best health insurance in my opinion .

Everyone I know has diet issues but then we are our diet so how can you not ? I have had huge arguments with my daughter because she refuses to eat more veg , yet its my wife, who eats less meat , who insists that I let her eat what she wants !
I have watched my daughter eat a whole leg of roast lamb sometimes! Must be when she is getting a growing spurt but that's a lot of meat .

The more I learn ,the more I have to accept that there are so many ways to eat healthy , but fresh home grown has radically improved My health and reduced my need for meat , so in relative terms I can actually say I am evolving slowly away from meat by improving the quality of the rest of my diet.

So yes , I do actually think Vegan/vegetarian has a great deal of Merit as long as its a process that is non judgmental . Its all so relative but if more people see the value in sharing and community growing of food there is hope for the future . Because if we dont get away from factory food and factory farming of people then we wont have a planet left.

I guess the other thing that colors my opinion is the number of anorexics/Bulimics I have known over the years ,who punish their bodies and minds with extreme dietary habits. I had an anorexic GF who lived on dried fruit/nuts and lettuce leaves , god love her . Usual story , history of sexual abuse ,so her diet gave her a sense of control over her life . Visually she was stunningly beautiful but in a Bikini I did not have the heart to tell her she looked half starved to death. At times like that I just wanted to stick a large steak dinner in front of her and say "for gods Sake Wibs , eat it !"
Her reply. "Im already fat" .

Thing I notice most .Poor quality food is addictive . High quality food just hits the spot and makes you feel great without consuming excessive amounts.
My meat cravings go up when I do a lot of heavy work or exercise .I have tried substituting other protiens but my concentration and eyesight suffer . I cant do my work safely without those two.

B.B.Baghor wrote:Looking at the different subjects that are addressed in this thread, I believe this video is in its right place here.

Dr. Jane Goodall a wonderful message for Monsanto & humanity.

https://www.facebook.com/OrganicRising/videos/vl.1635894186660644/1036450356397383/?type=1&theater

I Did get around to checking out Jane Goodall's Message today . Pretty much agree with her one hundred percent . My aunt worked with her occasionally and was involved in rescuing chimps from experimental labs with another lady back in the UK . Cant remember her name now.

I will never forget watching a wildlife documentary where they filmed wild chimps in Africa hunting down, killing and eating smaller Monkeys to eat .It shocked me actually a lot but should we really be surprised ?

Watched that film supersize me again today . Brilliant expose of the junk food industry . Real time thorough documentation of how quickly junk food can destroy your health.

If herbivores went unchecked in Africa by Carnivores, the Savannah would quickly be reduced to overgrazed desert .

If rats go unchecked they can start plagues .

If locusts go on a feeding frenzy for lack of control by flesh eating insects such as the praying Mantis , the vegans go hungry.

If humans continue to argue over who is the most right and who is the most wrong ,they will all die in the same barrel of monkey's.

Sooner or later though the limits of every diet choice are found. Peak predators get trampled to death by Elephants . Giraffes can mortally wound a Lion with one well placed Kick . The only certainty in the natural world is uncertainty and eventual death .

No matter what species you are , you have a common heritage with every species . You will live , you will die. You will come back .
Suckling on a teat soon enough and taking your first baby steps again .

Growing up in that life or remaining a child is a choice. But regardless of your diet choice , your white Blood cells will be feasting on Bacteria today to keep you alive . Thank 'god' some creatures are not squeamish and self righteous.

Fear of Death haunts the urban pet Human like a Plague . They fear death so much they never really live.So they run back to their cages where big brother can take care of them.

Today , I walked out in to the natural world to pee under my lemon tree and watch our chickens scratch around for Bugs to eat under the Nut tree's .
I watched my 'Evil predatory Carnivorous Cat' Sunbathe on the Veranda. I saw the Kookaburra hunt skinks. A reptilian Bird hunting and eating Lizards from a fence post. That is just Sick. Not.

Its Life . Life. Its a good job some Vegans dont get to see Nature in the raw . Butcher Birds smashing snakes against rocks and impaling them on thorns. Shocking , absolutely shocking. Tree's poisoning other saplings with death dealing enzymes in their fallen leaves . Its a jungle out there Missy !

Vegans jumping in to four wheel drive vehicles and riding rough shod over and through a thousand tiny insects. Its slaughter I tell you , sheer bloody slaughter.

But in the face of infinity , not such a terrible thing really. I got used to being Killed some time ago . Its really not such a big deal and a great excuse to start over in a hot young body.

Conservation of energy clearly states that Energy can neither be created or destroyed. Only transformed.

The Chase IS better than the catch. And life is a gift to be lived at full throttle, not kept unopened in a Bottle.

If you have never lived you have never really loved. Hate is an excuse for wimps. People Say " I hate My life !"
Mother natures reply would be "Live it before you diss it"

blue roller wrote:Its Life . Life. Its a good job some Vegans don't get to see Nature in the raw . Butcher Birds smashing snakes against rocks and impaling them on thorns. Shocking , absolutely shocking. Tree's poisoning other saplings with death dealing enzymes in their fallen leaves . Its a jungle out there Missy !

You express your thoughts so eloquently Blue Roller........paint your thoughts so beautifully and accurately with your words. But that, what you said above, to me sums up what so many of us find the hardest to accept in this world. I know I, for one, couldn't live on a farm and witness the slaughter all around.

Yes some are vegans due to religious or spiritual reasons, some just don't like the taste of meat, but I suspect there's many more out there that also, or purely, just don't like to feel themselves connected in any way to the constant slaughter, as consumers in relation to it in any form (eg experimentation), especially when there's so much waste in our stores.

Obviously I, and I'm sure these others, would love to be breatharians but avoiding facing the reality of life in this world is the pill many of us have to swallow while living in these bodies, like it or not. I,for one, won't be sad to leave this body behind for that very reason.

B.B.Baghor wrote:. I can always move on, be it in the world out there, or in the world within. It's what I like to call fluidity, the ability
to keep moving and not get stuck in a definition of how my reality shows up, thinking it's the only one.

Ah, there's that word 'fluidity' again.  IMO every word is a framework, or definition, including the word 'fluidity' and none of us should be bound by another's interpretation of what it means in their own experience, only as it applies to our own evolution and choices of where our mind wants to wander, every second of every day.  

My Mentor was largely vegetarian and a man of very slight build . At the end of his life he decided to go breatharian and ate little more than a handful of nuts and water .

I still have his hand typed notes on how to do it successfully .

He passed on in his late nineties . He had a long and healthy life free of any major ailments . I miss him greatly even though I know he is alive again in another body.

Energy takes on so many different forms. We bathe in it .Solar,electromagnetic ,Gravitic etc. Our Physical bodies feed on all these sources and food and oxygen.

I LOVE being in a Physical Body. I love making love to life in my body. I am not ashamed of my body at all . I have been blessed by good Genes because my family see's the virtue in looking after the soul that keeps the body in good condition.

Its not enough to feed the body if you neglect the soul. Love starved people are eating way their bodies with anger and grief ,no matter how well they protest they feed it.

The soul is hungry for experience , not empty promises and chatter . The soul does not care much for TV and computers. It wants to get out there and do stuff . It wants to feel alive in a body, not imprisoned/dead . My chickens don't want to survive in a cage .They want to run around .They want to come in our house and check out the furniture . They want my daughter to pick them up and stroke them.

The soul craves diversity and stimulation. It wants the madness ,the hurt ,the pain and the fulfillment . It knows tomorrow is another day on the road to infinity.It does not worry about the crap that fear programmed minds do.

Soul Food . Why eat alone when you can stare across a candle lit table at someone beautiful ? Don't lie to me and tell me you would prefer the former to the later.

I like Eartha Kit.

I too live on an old property which precedes all the corporate legislation. If you dont reserve your rights explicitly its implied consent to theirs.
I watch Sci Fi and enjoy it in the evening now and then when the days work is done . The problems occur when the screen becomes the main theme.

A lot of celebs are very tuned in people who know how important it is to escape the Hollywood meat grinder and keep it real. Staying grounded when you are surrounded by greedy egotists is vital for your sanity.

There was a famous actress who way before her time spoke openly about white sugar being a poison . So true. We dont keep any in our house and soda/coke etc is banned . Thankfully my daughter has no taste for it at all.

Funny how people who miss romantic love in their lives often dismiss it as something they dont want or need . Denial does not make the need go away. Love can take so many avenues though .Passion for an art form or adventure travel . Infinite possibilities when you dare to imagine for yourself.
Love denied is one of the most self destructive avenues.Men who deny their feminine side become bitchy .Women who dont allow their masculine side free expression become angry and cruel.

When we listen to our heart , we go with the flow of nature and nature happily reaches out to communicate with us . If we listen.
Chickens will talk back if you talk to them. They will hang out with you in the garden . Cats and dogs we know do that but all animals will consider communicating with you if you can be proven trust worthy.

Beam love, my Mentor use to say. Beam love to everyone and everything . It reminds me of the young man who asked his father for advice on Girls.

"Dad , how can you tell if a Girl likes you ?"
"Easy, she will let you know she hates you for no good reason !"
"why do they do that ?"
"So that they can get your attention and have an emotional connection"
"That does not make sense to me"
"I know , but they think we are to stupid to notice without making a fuss , which is pretty much true "
"So there's this Girl I like and I think she likes me but one minute its on and the next its off. Whats that all about ?"
"She feels vulnerable and does not want to experience hurt or rejection , just like you "
"So what do I do ?"
"Be yourself and ask her for a date. Or do you want to spend the rest of your life asking yourself 'what if' ?"
"How did you figure this stuff out Dad ? "
"By dating ,failing and learning the hard way. Dont worry .If its meant to be it will happen naturally. If it does not you move on and I guarantee it wont be long before another girl captures your attention."
"They are good at that dad "
"Youth is to precious to waste waiting for someone else to do the footwork for you .You just have to get out there and do it. You will win some and loose some , but the experience will make you stronger ,wiser and more attractive to the Girl who is worth the bother."
"you make is sound so easy!"
"It is, once you get the hang of it"

"Dad ?"
"Yeeeeees"
"Can I borrow your car ?"

B.B. Baghor wrote:That's how I perceive it, words are born from my experience and my interpretation only, true as long as they are true to me, for also this is within the realm of fluidity.

So this is why you felt it necessary to quibble over my use of the word "definition" in what I said?  How about taking a more fluid approach to allowing others to express themselves as best they can.  Each time I post now I'm thinking, "Did I express that correctly?  Will BB criticize what I've tried to say?"  And then along you come and it's     "Hmm.  Apparently not"  

I'm beginning to feel like a puppet with you pulling my strings.  I believe you're just trying to 'share your wisdom' but that's not how it's coming across to me.  It's putting me off posting at all.  Being so pedantic is not fluidity of thinking BB. And again, it's nothing to do with the subject under discussion in this thread.