The Technology of UFOs
is far ahead of ours
An Interview with The Former Brazilian Minister of
Aeronautics, Brigadier Socrates da Costa Monteiro.
"UFO's technology is far ahead from ours",
says former Brazilian minister of Aeronautics brigadier Socrates
Monteiro
“Over decades the military have been
reporting UFO activity within the Brazilian territory. However, due to
the lack of a reasonable explanation, these reports are left aside
awaiting for the time when their nature and the identity of their crew
can be understood”--Brigadier Socrates da Costa Monteiro
Exclusive interview given to A. J. Gevaerd, editor of the
Brazilian UFO Magazine (www.ufo.com.br)
Introduction:
The latest military to join the
UFO disclosure enthusiasm in Brazil states that the country’s ufologists
are on the right path by searching for the official acknowledgement of
UFO existence and their activities in Brazilian skies. Furthermore,
Lieutenant Brigadier Socrates da Costa Monteiro admits his wish to know
our visitors’ technology by saying: “If, at my term as the
Minister of Aeronautics, I were asked to disclose our secret files, I’d
have that done”. Such stance only adds to the list of officials
who no longer agree with the secrecy involving the alien presence on
Earth.
From 1990 to 1992, during the Collor administration, Monteiro
served as a minister. He also occupied different high positions in the
Brazilian armed forces. Even after years of retirement from the
Brazilian Air Force (FAB), he maintains his links with acting officials
in numerous ranks in the military. As a commander of the Brasilia-based I
Centro Integrado de Defesa Aérea e Controle de Tráfego Aéreo (Cindacta
I) our interviewee was in charge of the recording of UFO information for
the whole country, especially for the Central and South-Eastern parts
of Brazil . Monteiro reveals that UFO sightings and radar detections
were already common much before he took office. He further says that all
cases were thoroughly registered by the Aeronautics and some were even
investigated.
Having served as a pilot for the Brazilian Postal Service and a
commander of important divisions such as the VII Comando Aéreo Regional
(Comar VII), Monteiro keeps a vivid memory of his times in the military
and talks for the first time about his interest in Ufology. He further
explains how the country dealt with the issue during his times as an
officer on duty. Just like any other minister before him, Monteiro also
had access to serious information on the presence of other cosmic
species in his country. In this interview, he even shares some of those
cases with the readers. Despite his more than 5,000 hours flying several
types of aircraft, his experiences were never onboard, but on the
ground with his wife, in Rio de Janeiro .
Brigadier Monteiro was also a commander at the Sao Paulo-based IV
Comando Aério Regional (Comar 4), a body in control of South-Eastern air
space in Brazil . Therefore, he was in charge of the area affected by
the so-called Brazilian Official UFO Night, on 19 May 1986. This
incident is one of the pillars to our campaign UFOs: Liberdade de
Informação Já. As well known, in that occasion Brazilian states
of Rio de Janeiro , Sao Paulo , and Goias were swarmed by some 20
luminous flying circles with estimated 100 meter in diameter each. Those
lights were chased by Brazilian F5E and Mirage jets which took off from
Santa Cruz (RJ) and Anapolis (GO) airfields. “I was reported that
those objects reached 4.000 km/h, but such speed is too high for our
radars and cause them to loose accuracy”, he states.
In this exclusive interview to Revista UFO Monteiro reveals a
striking occurrence within Cindacta facilities at the city of Gama (DF)
when he realized the crew of that object were in possession of highly
advanced technology. Even without authorization and not knowing how to
act, his men at the base decided to open fire against an intruder. By
knowing of the incident, the brigadier ordered for an immediate
cease-fire, “They have a much more advanced technology. We don’t
know how they would react to our actions”. Throughout the
interview, Monteiro referred to our visitors as a more advanced species,
but that didn’t seem to be a comfortable assertion from him. At the
beginning of the talk, he called the phenomenon as “magnetic
abnormalities” , “since we lack a more appropriate term”.
As the interview went on, the brigadier felt more comfortable and,
laughing of his previous interpretation, acknowledged he was always
aware of the extraterrestrial nature of the UFOs.
As a friend of other military involved with UFO incidents, such as
former Embraer’s chairman Ozires Silva and former minister of
Aeronautics Octavio Moreira Lima, Monteiro confesses his immense
curiosity about flying saucers. “I wish I could enter that ‘thing’
at once and see how it is”. He is also said to have made
controversial comments on the Brazilian Official UFO Night, an
occurrence now brought to light with the disclosure of important
official documents by Brazilian government [See UFO 160].
The Brigadier is quoted as having stated that, “the Aeronautics
have been recording these events for so many years” and that UFOs
“went from 250 to 1.500 km/h in less then a second”.
Monteiro may also have admitted that, “FAB recorded the whole
incident in magnetic tapes”. All these facts are now further
elaborated by him.
The interviewee is open to the idea of other forms of intelligent
lives, but is also cautious when talking about that. After much
insistence from his interviewers, Monteiro admits that not only him, but
also other high ranking officers, are quite aware that we are being
visited by more advanced cosmic species. “We know that they do not
represent any threat. I am convinced that their approach is aimed to
know us”. Such words become even more meaningful when uttered by
the man responsible for the implementation of the Amazon Surveillance
System (SIVAM) and the privatization of Embraer.
This remarkable interview published by Revista UFO shows readers
that Lieutenant-Brigadie r Socrates da Costa Monteiro is another
important figure in the Brazilian military to acknowledge the
seriousness of ufologists’ mission in researching alien activity on
Earth. He also expresses his support to the campaign UFOs:
Liberdade de Informação Já, an initiative conducted by the Brazilian
Committee of Ufologists (CBU). Following colleagues who
previously spoke through this magazine, Monteiro states that official
institutions should support ufologists in their task to determine the
nature of the UFO phenomenon.
A.J.: Brigadier, I should start by thanking you
for being so kind in receiving us. My first question is: Have you ever
experienced any ufological event, be it in your military career, as a
minister, or in your private life?
S.M.: Well, it depends on what you call a “ufological
event”. But I can say I’ve seen things that caught my attention. Even
my wife was present at one of those occasions. It occurred at that night
in which many objects were seen flying over Rio de Janeiro , Sao Paulo ,
and Sao Jose dos Campos [The Brazilian Official UFO Night].
She was watching the Copacabana beach from the balcony of our flat in
Rio and spotted a bizarre light in the sky. She was surprised, looked to
me and said: “It’s a flying saucer”. When I saw the scene,
especially my wife’s reaction, I joked: “I don’t know what that
is, but if you tell someone I’ll punish you. You didn’t see anything,
you don’t know anything. If you don’t keep quiet, you’ll get into
trouble. I won’t say anything either”. Then I took my powerful
Navy binoculars to better see that light.
A.J.: What did you think that was? As an Air
Force expert you must have rejected any known explanation. ..
S.M.: Actually, I can’t say what that was. Ozires
Silva had a similar experience that same night. You know his story,
right? He was travelling from Brasilia to Sao Jose dos Campos and saw an
unidentified light following his aircraft, an Embraer’s Xingu . Ozires
was interviewed by a TV channel the next day and declared, “That’s true.
The light stood beside me following me for a long time changing from
one side of the aircraft to another”. When I heard that I told him: “Now
you’re in trouble. You won’t be able to hide it from anyone anymore”.
He only laughed. Ozires was a colleague of mine at the military school
and is a very close friend. When my wife heard his account, she said to
him, “That’s it, Ozires. Socrates and I saw that too”. In another
interview he even mentioned that experience I had with my wife. In the
end, the case became well known. However, it would be difficult for me
to give a personal account on the issue, since I have never seen
anything really clear or something I could affirm was not of human
nature. There was never anything I could address by saying: “You are not
a human being. You are an extraterrestrial” . Therefore, I’ve never
seen anything like that, but I’ve seen things in the sky which I call
“electronic anomalies”.
A.J.: And what would be “electronic anomalies”,
Brigadier?
S.M.: Those should be phenomena seen in the sky for
which we do not have a reasonable explanation. Let me explain it better,
when I was a commander to the Centro Integrado de Defesa Aérea e
Controle de Tráfego Aéreo (Cindacta), in Brasilia , there were many
cases. As you know, Cindacta has a very sophisticated operational
system. At the time of its implementation Latin America had only two
similar ones – one was in Mexico City subway, the other one was in Sao
Paulo subway. Cindacta used to integrate all of Brazilian territory in
real time by means of a powerful computer system. We recorded everything
spotted by our radars and all was kept for 30 days. After that we used
to clear the tapes in order to reuse it for new recordings. Sometimes we
had signals on the screen, objects that stopped and moved. We didn’t
know what they were. So we only took notes of all that and, by lacking a
better definition, we only called those artefacts as “electronic
anomalies” [At that time the term “hotel traffic” was not in use]. We
did so because they were electronic signals which we didn’t know how to
interpret.
A.J.:Besides this phenomenon, have you ever
received any reports from locals about UFO sightings?
S.M.: Yes, yes. Sometimes people came to me telling
of things they had seen, both military and civilians. One case was
special, since it seriously involved our facilities. Cindacta had radar
and telecommunication facilities based in Gama, a Brasilia neighbor
city. The commander in that base was Captain Joao Bernardo Vieira. I had
just taken office at Cindacta’s command two months before. So, one
night around 22h00, Vieira called me to report that radars in Gama had
been spotting strange objects. “Commander, it’s full of flying saucers
around here”, he said. Then I told him: “Don’t be a fool, man. What’s
really going on there?” He insisted: “I’m no fool, they are really here,
commander. They are throwing stones at us”. Vieira even said some
soldiers had shot at the object so I ordered them to stop immediately.
“Don’t shoot anything. Get your people inside the barracks, I don’t want
anyone close to that thing”. The objects had glowing lights that
changed in color and moved slowly around them.
A.J.: This is impressive, but how could the
aircraft throw stones at the soldiers? Do you have any explanation for
that?
S.M.: That I don’t know, I only heard Vieira
reporting: “They are throwing stones at us”. I think that a propulsion
object may have raised stones from the ground then soldiers around it
might have thought they were being assaulted. Or it may be that pilots
in that “thing” propelled a strong blast in order to raise stones and
scare the soldiers in order to prevent them from a stronger response.
They have a much more advanced technology and we don’t know how they
would react to our response. Vieira told me around 25 soldiers were
present, so I ordered them to get inside the base and receive a piece of
paper in order to describe exactly what they had seen. “They are
forbidden from talking to one another and you take measures to enforce
that”, I told him. I wanted the soldiers to make their description of
the events and Vieira to bring me their papers at Cindacta at 08h00 the
next day. That’s what he did.
A.J.: Did the shots hit the flying saucers?
S.M.: No.
A.J.: What was the outcome of your
investigation? Was it possible to determine what object was that over
Cindacta radars in Gama?
S.M.: Well, our soldiers are very primitive. As you
know, soldiers are not very educated persons and have difficulties in
precisely describing what they see. But it was possible to tell from
their descriptions and drawings that they had witnessed something weird.
It was something with changing colors that approached them very
closely. One of them asked permission to open fire and that’s how the
shooting began. All told the same story and I wrote that all down in a
report which I sent to the Aeronautics Armed Forces (EMAER). I never
expressed my opinion or made any guesses. The envelope I sent to EMAER
contained all information I had and it was kept somewhere.
A.J.: What does Captain Vieira says about it?
S.M.: I lost contact with him. But recently, in a
medical appointment I met a familiar face who asked me if I still
remembered. Before I could answer, the person smiled and said, “I am
Vieira, Captain from Cindacta in Gama”. Of course I remembered, although
many people had served under my command. “Vieira of the flying
saucer?”, I said. “That’s me”, he replied. The funny thing is that it
happened this week, only a few days before this interview. That was such
a coincidence because I haven’t seen him for the last 20 years or so. I
even told him about our interview and asked if he would also talk and
he agreed, “Tell them to call me” [His interview will be done in a few
weeks].
A.J.: Do you have any other case to tell?
S.M.: Yes. There is another story from a doctor in
Sao Paulo . I had to undergo a medical procedure called
cinecoronoriography which is basically the ingestion of contrasts in
order to visualize whether arteries are open or blocked. I didn’t want
to do that in Rio, so I went to Sao Paulo to be examined at Hospital
Sirio Libanes whose directors I know. I had helped them with problems
regarding the clearance of equipment withheld by Infraero. They imported
machines for medical examination, but didn’t have the money to collect
them at the customs. So we entered an agreement: I would authorize the
clearance provided that they offer free treatment to a number of poor
people. And so we did. They performed well their part in the deal.
A.J.: Then how about the story you have to tell
us?
S.M.: The day following my exams many doctors came to
my room to thank me for that agreement and so we talked. When most of
them had left, one stood in the room and started a chat about UFOs. I
don’t remember his name, but he was very straight to the point,
“Brigadier, can I ask you a question?” I said yes and he went on to say,
“Do you believe in UFOs?” I was surprised and said, “Ah, doctor, that’s
a very common question. I don’t know whether they exist or not, people
believe what they want to believe”. So he told me he was from a
countryside town in the state of Sao Paulo and had witnessed something
there by 02h00 from the balcony of his hotel room, “It was a huge thing
simply descending at the city’s square”. I asked what huge thing was
that and he replied straight away, “It was a flying saucer!” Then he
looked for my advice on what to do and asked if he could tell his story.
I told him yes, he could do as he pleased, but I didn’t want to make
any comments. He described the object and said to be close to it, no
more than 30 meters away. I was impressed by his assertiveness and his
will to state that what he saw was a flying saucer. I have never met him
again and do not even know if he is still at the Hospital.
A.J.: Have you heard of any cases regarding
UFOs escorting airplanes?
S.M.: Yes, sometimes Cindacta radars spot strange
things. For example, pilots flying Brasilia-Sao Paulo route used to
report sightings of lights following their aircraft. We used to make
them the usual questions such as the duration of the event, the altitude
of the objects, things like that. Our questions over the radio aimed to
get more details on what they were claiming to have seen. Then we
reported everything back to the Aeronautics without expressing an
opinion, which was the recommended procedure.
A.J.: The procedure of reporting to EMAER was
an established guideline or was it done at your own will?
S.M.: Well, actually we did like that because we
didn’t know what else to do. And we didn’t express any opinion because
we also didn’t know what to say. If I told them I’d seen a flying
saucer, they [EMBAER officers] would ask me to describe it and I
couldn’t describe anything, since they were all dots on the radar
screen. So I only used to say, “Look, there’s a light here spotted by
the radar. I’ll call it an ‘electronic anomaly’”. That was always the
name I used to give to those phenomena, as I didn’t have a better
definition to give.
A.J.: Are there any cases involving pilots and
UFOs that you could tell us?
S.M.: Some colleagues had told me about lights which
changed colors and followed their aircraft. The lights seemed to come
and go suddenly and at incredible speed. I heard many of these stories
and researched about some as I’m a curious person. For example, I
learned from the USAF’s Blue Book project that many pilots were followed
by anomalies. Some of them even lost their lives, such as the case with
Thomas Mantell, in January 1948. He disappeared after intercepting an
undetected UFO. His aircraft was found in wrecks a few kilometers beyond
the point in which he lost radar contact. Some people don’t believe it,
some others do. Some people believe these are merely meteorological
phenomena. As for myself, I believe that anything is possible.
A.J.: Brigadier, as you know, the Brazilian
Committee of Ufologists (CBU) launched a campaign five years ago aiming
to have an official disclosure of government archives. The campaign
UFOs: Liberdade de Informação has already achieved good results. On 20
May 2005, we were even invited by the Air Force commander, Luiz Carlos
da Silva Bueno, to go to Brasilia and visit Cindacta and Comdabra
facilities.
S.M.: Yes, I know. You were received by Brigadier
Atheneu Azambuja and were allowed to see some documents in a room.
A.J.: Yes, but the authorization was only to
see those documents. We were not allowed to copy any of them. That is
why the campaign still goes on. After a successful beginning we want to
move further. In 2008, the government finally started to release some
files. Those were classified documents and we would like to show them to
you.
S.M.: I am aware that some papers are being
disclosed.
A.J.: Right, and among them there are files
concerning Operação Prato, an operation carried out in the Amazon, in
1977, under Colonel Uyrange Hollanda. At the time he was a Captain, then
was promoted to the rank of Colonel. Among the documents, there are
some from the defunct National Information Service (SNI), which we did
not even know about.
S.M.: As I can see, you’ve probably had access do
documents from EMAER, who starts to disclose their archives. As a
Cindacta commander, I sent alone 25 UFO sighting statements which must
remain there till this day.
A.J.: Were you ever aware of the involvement of
the SNI in cases such as Operação Prato or any other UFO sightings in
Brazil ?
S.M.: No. I knew only about EMAER.
A.J.: How about Operação Prato? What do you
know about it?
S.M.: Not much. I only know it occurred in the
Amazon, in 1977, and was under Brigadier Protasio [Lopes de Oliveira].
As you know, I was a commander to the VII Comando Aéreo Regional (COMAR
VII), in Manaus , and that all happened at the I Comando Aéreo Regional
(COMAR I), which is in Belem .
A.J.: Exactly. Operação Prato was prepared at
COMAR I and carried out at the island of Colares, 80km from Belem.
Documents disclosed show routes, formats, and sizes of UFOs.
S.M.: All these [pointing to papers shown to him] are
official government documents? Did you have access to all that?
A.J.: Yes, we did. These are copies from the
originals and tell of all that happened at that time. Similarly
interesting are the documents recently declassified which account for
the occurrence of 19 May 1986, which had Ozires Silva as a main figure
involved, the so-called Official UFO Nights in Brazil.
S.M.: That’s interesting. I can see here among the
documents regarding that night there’s an incident report signed by
Brigadier Jose Pessoa Cavalcanti de Albuquerque.
A.J.: Yes. In that report he describes how the
objects zigzagged, stopped, reached incredible speed, and so on. It also
states that the objects both chased and were chased by Brazilian jets
[See UFO 160].
S.M.: I see. Decisions at the time were made by the
Comando de Defesa Aérea (CODA), a body responsible for the monitoring of
any non-identified objects which could pose a threat to the country.
CODA was the body in charge of the taking-off of Mirages and F-5Es and
the interception of intruders. There (CODA) is where the search for
anything unusual starts.
A.J.: Now we know that thanks to this document
disclosed by the government. However, there are still some topics
missing in order to illustrate that night. For example, you were the
commander of the IV Comando Aéreo Regional (COMAR IV), in Sao Paulo ,
which was the body directly in charge of the occurrence. Did you follow
the development of the incident?
S.M.: No, I did not. That was the same night my wife
witnessed those objects in Rio and I was with her when Mirages and F-5Es
were launched against the objects in Rio and Sao Paulo . At the same
time, Ozires Silva was on his way from Brasilia to Sao Jose dos Campos
and witnessed the phenomenon.
A.J.: As the commander of COMAR IV didn’t you
follow on the facts? There were statements published at the occasion
which were quoted as being yours. You were quoted as saying that those
facts were long being reported and that FAB was aware of that. That was
all published. What do you have to say about that?
S.M.: Yes, now I remember. What I’m saying is that I
didn’t have the opportunity to witness the event in real time. I only
knew that radars had spotted unusual objects or, again, “electronic
anomalies”. We put that all down in reports that were sent to EMAER,
which was the appropriate reporting mechanism.
A.J.: Did you get any answers from EMAER about
that case or any other event reported to them? Also, did you receive any
instructions as to how to behave in those circumstances?
S.M.: No, but I know how they dealt with it. When
there was nothing to say or no plausible explanation to give, the
reports were sent to the archives awaiting for the day when a possible
explanation could arise.
A.J.: Do you know if at any given time the
government, EMAER or even CODA had established a committee in order to
address these cases?
S.M.: When I was a minister of Aeronautics and
received that kind of reports, I just did as usual: sent them to the
appropriate files containing all of those similar cases. That was a
single folder so that we do not loose the origin of the reports. All was
kept there. When we lacked an explanation, we simply waited for it to
come up one day. I used to give orders for a research, but it was not an
investigation or an inquiry. It was just an informal check-up.
A.J.: Those check-ups were routine or were
applied in only special cases?
S.M.: It happened only in a few cases, when we
consider it worth to investigate. When the description of the event was a
credible one, I tried to search for more concrete data.
A.J.: How were those check-ups conducted?
S.M.: I used to send someone to talk with locals from
the place where the event occurred. We talked to people who might be
linked to what was reported. We also inspected the area followed by the
witness, because such cases normally happened in the rural area or small
cities, not in large urban centers. At least this is what we normally
got. If I’m not mistaken, it has been happening in Brazil since the
1950s, when officers from Gravataí Air Base, state of Rio Grande do Sul,
saw strange objects in the sky at broad day light. I believe that was
in 1954.
A.J.: Were you already in the military at that
time? What was your rank?
S.M.: Yes, I was a Lieutenant at the Air Force. The
event was registered in Gravatai and caused great commotion, since
high-ranking officials like Brigadier Jose Hernani were involved.
A.J.: Brigadier, I’d like to resume the
Brazilian Official UFO Night when jets were sent to intercept the
objects. In that occasion you’ve said that FAB had been recording such
cases for years. You also said that the artefacts went from 250 to 1500
km/h in less than a second, which is confirmed by the documents recently
disclosed by the government. What else can you say about it?
S.M.: My technicians mentioned 4000 km/h, but that
speed is too much for our radars. It makes them loose accuracy.
Therefore, we can not really state that they flew at that speed (4000
km/h). However, they disappeared from radar screens so quickly that
Cindacta’s system registered a not much reliable velocity assessment. We
could not precisely assert 4000 km/h technically speaking. What was
certain is that the objects were at more or less 800 km/h, then suddenly
sped up so quickly that they disappear from radar screens. Our
technicians said that happened at 4000 km/h, but I do not endorse this
assumption.
A.J.: When radars showed that the objects
disappeared in that fashion, did you still think of “electronic
anomalies” as an explanation?
S.M.: Well, I still called it “electronic anomalies”,
because I didn’t have any other name to give to it [laughing about his
own definition].
A.J.: But what do you think those objects were?
What is your opinion?
S.M.: I don’t think anything and do not have a
personal say on that.
A.J.: Have you ever considered those might be
ships from another planet crewed by a superior intelligence?
S.M.: I’d like to think like that. I’d like to be
able to say I believe it, that I’m sure, but I’m kind of skeptic about
things I can not prove. However, if you ask me if I think that is all
fabrication, I’d say no. I don’t think this is the case. But the point
is I can not say what those things are.
A.J.: I would insist in asking you: What do you
think they are?
S.M.: I think it’s very hard to say that nothing can
exist beyond our knowledge or beyond our world. That would be false. I
wish I could say “they” are there, but I still had no opportunity for a
close look. I have no concrete data to give to you regarding those
objects. Believe me, I wish I could join you in order to research this
“thing”, but I’m in no conditions for that.
A.J.: As you said before, FAB had been
recording UFO sightings. Can you tell of any case which had this same
proportions?
S.M.: Yes, I consider the Gravatai case as a
significant occurrence. [See box].
A.J.: Besides Gravatai incident and the
Brazilian Official UFO Night, do you remember any other case in which
jets were sent to intercept UFOs?
S.M.: No, there were none that I remember. Besides,
we had the habit of not commenting on things we could not prove. So we
avoided talks on those cases because we lacked concrete data in order to
identify the nature of those objects. There was also the issue of
meteorological phenomena to be taken into consideration. Some balloons
might reach incredible altitudes.
A.J.: You’re right, but CindactaYou’re right,
but Cindacta radars and experienced jet pilots wouldn’t take one thing
for another...
S.M.: Sure, but every aspect must be considered.
There is a meteorological phenomenon called St. Elmo’s fire, for
example, which is a strong bluish light that can stood still or move.
This one is often seen in cemiteries due to the decomposition of organic
matter. The gas resulting from it generates a bluish light when in
contact with the air. This is what we call St. Elmo’s fire.
A.J.: There were many reports from pilots
seeing the St. Elmo’s fire. However, what they usually describe are more
likely to be associated with ufological occurrences. The foo-fighters
at the II World War are an example.
S.M.: All pilots have already seen the St. Elmo’s
fire in the sky. I have seen it many times. It might even enter the
aircraft and cross through it. I’ve seen it very often over the Amazon
when flying a C-47 or a DC-3 for the Brazilian postal service. I have
more than 2000 hours of flight in that region and witnessed many
electrical storms, which may generate strange phenomena. There is a
number of atmospheric effects to be considered – the electric fire or
the St. Elmo’s fire is only one of those. The light rests at the tip of
the helix, then jumps from one side to another before going away. We got
even afraid of being burned. That happens to me several times. This is
why pilots always think, “It’s the St. Elmo’s fire again, get ready”
when there’s a light in the sky. However, not everything can be
explained like that, since the St. Elmo’s fire is just a small luminous
ball inside the cockpit. There are much larger lights. Anyway, any
commercial pilot flying over 10.000 meters have experienced that.
A.J.: There is another statement allegedly
yours regarding the Brazilian Official UFO night. It says that FAB had
recorded the event in video. Is it true?
S.M.: No. Actually the whole event was registered in
magnetic tapes, not in video. Radars have the ability to record
everything they detect. Then we keep these recordings for 30 days, as I
said before. After that we clear the magnetic tapes not to let them pile
up.
A.J.: Even recordings of an event which
triggered an interception operation in 19 May 1986 were deleted?
S.M.: When there’s something like that we normally
wait a little more before deleting the recordings. Maybe 2 or 3 months.
After that, recordings are deleted for the reasons I’ve already
mentioned. But Cindacta has recorded things like that many times. Not
once or twice, but many times. We always prepared reports and sent them
without any comments, since we didn’t know what or how to explain.
A.J.: Regarding this event or any other, have
you ever been pressured by foreign governments to share information?
S.M.: No. During my time as a minister that never
happened, or it happened without my knowledge.
A.J.: Brigadier Jose Carlos Pereira [See UFO
141 and 142] (EMAER) has already recorded hundreds of ufological
sightings since the 1950s. Do you confirm that?
S.M.: Well, Pereira was a chief of EMAER. Therefore,
these materials were in his desk for him to access anytime he wanted.
A.J.: In recent interviews he states that “it’s
time to end UFO secrecy”, and “secret files on UFOs should be
disclosed”. He firmly supports our campaign UFOs: Liberdade de
Informação Já. What do you think about these statements?
S.M.: I think there are two possible interpretations.
First, we need to disclose the files in order to clarify what the
phenomenon is. Second, this is necessary in order to avoid people saying
we are hiding the truth. I can anticipate people saying, “the
government hides mysterious phenomena from its people”. This is not
true. So files must be opened at once in order to avoid this idea. We
can not remain in an uncomfortable position regarding this issue.
A.J.: Brigadier Pereira says exactly the same.
He even says that people do not fear what is transparent, they fear what
is opaque instead. He further says that the documents can not affect
national security, do not pose a threat to the population and do not
harm the privacy of people involved. Files must be disclosed. Do you
agree with that?
S.M.: No doubt about that. Actually, I didn’t open
(the files) before, as a minister, because I was never asked to do so.
If I were ever asked, I’d have them opened.
A.J.: Would you do so even though they contain
serious incidents such as the Official Night, in which FAB jets were
sent to intercept objects of unknown nature?
S.M.: Yes, even those cases must be disclosed. Note
that jets were launched but could not even approach the objects. We are
talking about UFOs [not mentioning “electronic anomalies” anymore], and
our aircraft could not even get close to them.
A.J.: Do you think such impossibility to
intercept the objects was due to their alleged superior technology?
S.M.: Yes, [that’s why] we could not even get close
to those things which reach thousands of kilometers per hour in less
than a second. Ozires Silva saw that, my wife did, and so did I. As I
described before, there was a bright light standing still in the sky. I
was watching and waiting for it to turn left or right, but it didn’t. My
conclusion was that it was flying directly towards me, although it
seemed to be not moving.
A.J.: What did you think that time?
S.M.: I’m realistic about these matters. All I wanted
was to enter that “thing” and see how that works. This idea had already
gone through my mind long before.
A.J.: What do you mean? When did that happen?
S.M.: In 1950, when I was still a cadet. I was flying
a training session over Barra da Tijuca and saw something similar to a
balloon, as I can describe it. My trainer saw that as well and agreed
that that could be a balloon, but the object suddenly disappeared. Not
long after that, the magazine O Cruzeiro published a report entitled
Disco Voador na Barra da Tijuca (Flying Saucer over Barra da Tijuca). If
you check the magazine archives, you’ll get to the description of what
was seen that day. I think that was the same object I saw during my
training along with other colleagues. O Cruzeiro even mentioned that a
group of aircraft flying that zone might have spotted the object. They
were talking about us.
A.J.: Indeed, a passage in Fernando Cleto Nunes
Pereira’s book A Bíblia e os Discos Voadores (The Bible and the UFOs)
[Editora Ediouro, 1986], says that a cadet from Campo dos Afonsos would
have seen the UFO pictured by magazine O Cruzeiro.
S.M.: It might be me or any other cadet. I saw that
“thing” at Barra da Tijuca, which could be a balloon. That happened at
the same time and same place in which the UFO was photographed. To my
understanding, that was a balloon. However, when O Cruzeiro hit the
stands the next Sunday, the report defined that as a flying saucer. I
didn’t see anything that seemed like a saucer, but only a balloon, as I
can describe it. [When inquired about it, the interviewee revealed he
was never aware of the controversy surrounding Ed Keffel’s pictures of
an alleged UFO. Ed Keffel was a reporter for O Cruzeiro and worked in
partnership with Joao Martins. Those pictures are considered to be a
hoax by most of the Brazilian ufology community].
A.J.: Was the object just hanging still in the
air? Didn’t it move to any direction?
S.M.: When you are flying, it’s difficult to observe
the movement of other things in the sky. It’s hard to tell if that moved
or not.
A.J.: Brigadier, you already know that our main
wish today is having government ackowledgement of UFOs existence as
well as the disclosure of official archives. Brazilian ufologists also
want to establish a research committee to work in cooperation with Air
Force officials, be them retired or not. We wish to conduct joint
operations for case analysis aiming both military and civil data files.
Can we count on your support for that?
S.M.: Of course you can. Sure. As for the Aeronautics
as an institution I think that, if you’re able or lucky to reach most
concrete data, they will use you in order to find explanations or
collect more information.
A.J.: How do you suggest we could approach the
Aeronautics with such a proposal for a joint work?
S.M.: It maybe by finding out more new facts.
A.J.: We have hundreds of facts. What we need
now is an institutional and bureaucratic breakthrough so that our idea
is officially made into effect.
S.M.: How did you get access to all these information
you’ve just brought to show me?
A.J.: We made formal requests to the
Aeronautics and many other bodies as part of procedures put in place
after the Carta de Brasilia and, later on, by the Dossiê UFO Brasil [See
UFO 155 and 158]. Most of materials were released by the Centro de
Documentação e Histórico da Aeronáutica (Cendoc).
S.M.: If that was the case, I believe you should
follow on the same path. The body you said to have released most of
materials is, in fact, the most accessible one to that kind of proposal.
I’ll see what I can get to you in that sense.
A.J.: We thank you very much for that.
Regarding the time you served in Manaus as a commander to the VII
Comando Aéreo Regional (COMAR VII), was there any UFO sighting you could
tell us about?
S.M.: No. Despite the intense air traffic in that
area, I didn’t get any information of that kind. Roraima’s Boa Vista
airport used to be the most requested one in Brazil that time due to
mining activities in the region. There were more than 200 daily flights,
normally monomotors. There was a huge exploration of cassiterite at
that time.
A.J.: Such an aircraft traffic demands extreme
caution on the part of controllers, isn’t it?
S.M.: Yes. That’s the reason why after two months in
office as a minister I took the president to the region and proposed him
the implementation of a surveillance system in order to keep track of
anything that happens in the Amazon. This is what we know today as
Sistema de Vigilância da Amazônia (SIVAM). It was prepared by the Armed
Forces in order to monitor the air space in all of that area. The
initiative has its civil part, which is denominated Sistema de Proteção
da Amazônia (SIPAM). The president accepted the suggestion and the
system was put in place years later.
A.J.: When SIVAM started operations you were
not at the Ministry anymore, correct? Despite that fact, didn’t you know
of any occurrence in the Amazon, either through civil or military
pilots?
S.M.: No, nothing. That time there was nothing in the
Amazon, only rains.
A.J.: Regarding the Official Night, there is
another question. Some sectors in the press attempted to discredit the
importance of the case, while others argued that the Air Force would
never launch 7 jet fighters to intercept something of little importance.
In fact, an operation like that would be too expensive.
S.M.: Of course they wouldn’t. However, this kind of
interception operation is short. There’s no interception lasting 2 or 3
hours. It normally takes no more than 30 or 40 minutes. The aircraft
goes, checks, identifies the target or not, then returns to the base.
But you’re right, the costs are really high.
A.J.: So you mean the Aeronautics would never
deploy jets if the case was not very serious?
S.M.: They would not, but let me tell you a story.
During the conflict in Malvinas islands, in 1982, I was a commander at
Cindacta when we spotted an aircraft entering Brazilian air space from
the North, through Belem region. We knew that was a Russian Ilyushin
flying from Havana to Buenos Aires whose route crossed Brazilian air
space. We didn’t know the pilot, but we knew the Cuban ambassador to
Argentina was onboard carrying US$ 200,000 – and that I don’t know what
for. The aircraft entered Brazilian skies without contacting controllers
in Brasilia . The Military Operations Center immediately launched two
Mirage against the intruder. It was a Thursday, a day before Good
Friday, with a heavy storm falling over Brasilia . The air strip was
dark, we had lost the lights. So we put lamps on in order to make the
taking-off possible. The Mirage would take off at 22h00 in order to
intercept the Cuban aircraft. They ordered the intruder to come back and
land in Brasilia , but their pilots pretended not to listen. Then the
Mirages turned on their lights behind the Cuban aircraft and its pilots
understood they had no other choice. So they returned and landed in
Brasilia . What I want to say is that our system for interception really
works! [emphatic] However, if the HIlyushin had not landed in Brasília,
we wouldn’t know what to do, because none of our authorities would have
the courage to authorize an attack against the intruder. Now it’s a
different situation because we have a legislation regulating the
possibility of putting an intruder down.
A.J.: On 19 May 1986, Brazilian jets could not
force the UFOs to land. The recently disclosed report tells how every
jet was launched, what they saw, and how they unsuccessfully tried to
approach the objects. There were times when they turned from hunter to
prey. One of the UFOs reached 180 km in a matter of seconds going
Atlantic Ocean inwards at Sao Paulo coast, then turned back to chase
Brazilian jets.
S.M.: That’s true. What we see is that one can not
approach these objects. During this specific incident, pilots tried many
times, but UFOs simply sped up and left them behind.
A.J.: Impressive. And all was recorded by
ground and cockpit radars. The UFOs were being observed both by the
pilots and Ozires Silva.
S.M.: Those were “visual electronic anomalies”
[laughing each time more when quoting the term].
A.J.: Have you had the chance to talk to those
pilots or other military involved, such as the commander of Comando de
Defesa Aérea (CODA), Major Ney Cerqueira, now a retired Colonel? Or have
you talked to the then minister of Aeronautics, Brigadier Octavio
Moreira Lima ?
S.M.: No. I didn’t talk to them because I had no
intentions of carrying out a profound investigation on that. I knew it
would lead us nowhere.
A.J.: How did you know it would lead you
nowhere?
S.M.: Because it was always like this, at least here
in Brazil .
A.J.: But researching takes us somewhere, at
least.
S.M.: Yes. One day we’re going to get there.
A.J.: Sources say that 21 round-shaped objects,
100m in diameter each, were involved. Such a massive manifestation of
UFOs wouldn’t be a threat to national security, to civil air traffic,
especially at the time of the occurrence?
S.M.: No, we knew there wasn’t any threat. We were
convinced that their intention was to know better.
A.J.: To know what or who? Us?
S.M.: Yes, to know us.
A.J.: So it means you admit “they” exist and
are intelligent beings trying to know us.
S.M.: Well, they were electronic anomalies [laughing
even more]...
A.J.: At a time when even the government
discloses information it’s becoming more and more difficult to deny it,
isn’t it?
S.M.: My friends, I can assure you one thing: if I
had any concrete evidence about the reality of UFOs, I would pass it on
to you immediately. Unfortunately I don’t have any, but I do know a lot
of credible people who experienced the phenomenon and I can give you
their names. For example, Jose Aluizio Borges, a general manager to
Banco Real. He was at his farm near Campo Grande (MS) and saw a flying
saucer. “It was a huge light that crossed in front of us in the middle
of the night”, he told me [that witness was not found to give his
interview].
A.J.: So your friend was impressed just like
you when you saw that light together with your wife?
S.M.: Yes. Humans are naturally inclined to look for
the unknown. Brazilians have such inheritance from the Portuguese
people. Some 300 years ago, someone called Bartolomeu Gusmao did
something incredible. He made a small balloon go up inside the
Portuguese royal palace, so that he could prove his point that flying
was possible. Before that, when he was only describing what he would do,
everybody laughed. Then, when people saw the balloon going up, they
started to clap. Gusmao then asked the king’s permission to develop that
means of transport. After him, how many people got inspired to conduct
similar experiments? Would you believe that someone thought about that
means of transport 300 years ago?
A.J.: You have mentioned the event within
Cindacta facilities in Gama. Do you know of any other case in which UFOs
were shot at by the military? Do you know of any jet fighters having
targeted objects in the air?
S.M.: I don’t know any case of that. Actually, at the
time we followed the doctrine of non-aggression.
A.J.: That doctrine was enforced by whom?
S.M.: By no one. That was just a logical conclusion,
once we knew that an artefact capable of such flying maneuvers could
never be hit. It would be even crazy on our part to attempt anything
against it. We knew that and no one would be fool enough to try an
attack. That “thing” could simply pulverize us with a beam of light.
However, we were never prevented from trying to approach the ships in
order to see them closely. Actually, all the military were dying to see a
UFO at close range.
A.J.: Was that a formal doctrine within your
regulations?
S.M.: No, it was rather informal. It was a natural
behaviour for pilots and commanders. One would ask, “Hey, would you
shoot that?” and the other would reply, “Of course not. I’m not stupid”.
In fact, as we didn’t believe one could get even close to those
objects, we never had a procedure to be adopted in these cases.
A.J.: Brigadier Jose Carlos Pereira confirms
that on the Official Night Mirages and F-5Es were carrying missiles.
Didn’t they have the intention to fire?
S.M.: No. They had missiles because that was a
mission for interception when all aircraft take off carrying weapons.
That was just in case, because if force is needed we must be ready
whether to defend or to attack.
A.J.:Wasn’t there any fear on the part of the
military that the jets could be viewed as a threat by the UFOs?
S.M.: Yes, I feared that. I wanted we to check, but
not to get much closer [The interviewee falls into contradiction, since
we previously stated he couldn’t have followed the Official Night
because he was in Rio ]. Also, how could they know we carried weapons?
A.J.: Maybe they have technology enough to
detect it.
S.M.: Yes, it can be. Technology is an interesting
point. We know that our limit is the speed of light, for now. However,
we shall cross that frontier one day. Only then maybe we can understand
what is happening today.
A.J.: Brigadier, what do you say about all the
huge amount of documents still held at official archives? What should be
done about that?
S.M.: What should be done is what is being done, that
is, the disclosure triggered by ufologists. The government should call
for intelligent people who are interested in the subject and put those
materials in their hands – or at least facilitate their access to those
files.
A.J.: Do you support our campaign UFOs:
Liberdade de Informação Já which calls for the government to open those
files?
S.M.: You can be sure about that! Files must be
opened and you should go on with your campaign towards the government in
order to make that happen [emphatic]. Then you come to tell me what
you’ve got besides what you already have now.
Source: Theufochronicles.com
is far ahead of ours
An Interview with The Former Brazilian Minister of
Aeronautics, Brigadier Socrates da Costa Monteiro.
"UFO's technology is far ahead from ours",
says former Brazilian minister of Aeronautics brigadier Socrates
Monteiro
“Over decades the military have been
reporting UFO activity within the Brazilian territory. However, due to
the lack of a reasonable explanation, these reports are left aside
awaiting for the time when their nature and the identity of their crew
can be understood”--Brigadier Socrates da Costa Monteiro
Exclusive interview given to A. J. Gevaerd, editor of the
Brazilian UFO Magazine (www.ufo.com.br)
Introduction:
The latest military to join the UFO disclosure enthusiasm in Brazil states that the country’s ufologists
are on the right path by searching for the official acknowledgement of
UFO existence and their activities in Brazilian skies. Furthermore,
Lieutenant Brigadier Socrates da Costa Monteiro admits his wish to know
our visitors’ technology by saying: “If, at my term as the
Minister of Aeronautics, I were asked to disclose our secret files, I’d
have that done”. Such stance only adds to the list of officials
who no longer agree with the secrecy involving the alien presence on
Earth.
From 1990 to 1992, during the Collor administration, Monteiro
served as a minister. He also occupied different high positions in the
Brazilian armed forces. Even after years of retirement from the
Brazilian Air Force (FAB), he maintains his links with acting officials
in numerous ranks in the military. As a commander of the Brasilia-based I
Centro Integrado de Defesa Aérea e Controle de Tráfego Aéreo (Cindacta
I) our interviewee was in charge of the recording of UFO information for
the whole country, especially for the Central and South-Eastern parts
of Brazil . Monteiro reveals that UFO sightings and radar detections
were already common much before he took office. He further says that all
cases were thoroughly registered by the Aeronautics and some were even
investigated.
Having served as a pilot for the Brazilian Postal Service and a
commander of important divisions such as the VII Comando Aéreo Regional
(Comar VII), Monteiro keeps a vivid memory of his times in the military
and talks for the first time about his interest in Ufology. He further
explains how the country dealt with the issue during his times as an
officer on duty. Just like any other minister before him, Monteiro also
had access to serious information on the presence of other cosmic
species in his country. In this interview, he even shares some of those
cases with the readers. Despite his more than 5,000 hours flying several
types of aircraft, his experiences were never onboard, but on the
ground with his wife, in Rio de Janeiro .
Brigadier Monteiro was also a commander at the Sao Paulo-based IV
Comando Aério Regional (Comar 4), a body in control of South-Eastern air
space in Brazil . Therefore, he was in charge of the area affected by
the so-called Brazilian Official UFO Night, on 19 May 1986. This
incident is one of the pillars to our campaign UFOs: Liberdade de
Informação Já. As well known, in that occasion Brazilian states
of Rio de Janeiro , Sao Paulo , and Goias were swarmed by some 20
luminous flying circles with estimated 100 meter in diameter each. Those
lights were chased by Brazilian F5E and Mirage jets which took off from
Santa Cruz (RJ) and Anapolis (GO) airfields. “I was reported that
those objects reached 4.000 km/h, but such speed is too high for our
radars and cause them to loose accuracy”, he states.
In this exclusive interview to Revista UFO Monteiro reveals a
striking occurrence within Cindacta facilities at the city of Gama (DF)
when he realized the crew of that object were in possession of highly
advanced technology. Even without authorization and not knowing how to
act, his men at the base decided to open fire against an intruder. By
knowing of the incident, the brigadier ordered for an immediate
cease-fire, “They have a much more advanced technology. We don’t
know how they would react to our actions”. Throughout the
interview, Monteiro referred to our visitors as a more advanced species,
but that didn’t seem to be a comfortable assertion from him. At the
beginning of the talk, he called the phenomenon as “magnetic
abnormalities” , “since we lack a more appropriate term”.
As the interview went on, the brigadier felt more comfortable and,
laughing of his previous interpretation, acknowledged he was always
aware of the extraterrestrial nature of the UFOs.
As a friend of other military involved with UFO incidents, such as
former Embraer’s chairman Ozires Silva and former minister of
Aeronautics Octavio Moreira Lima, Monteiro confesses his immense
curiosity about flying saucers. “I wish I could enter that ‘thing’
at once and see how it is”. He is also said to have made
controversial comments on the Brazilian Official UFO Night, an
occurrence now brought to light with the disclosure of important
official documents by Brazilian government [See UFO 160].
The Brigadier is quoted as having stated that, “the Aeronautics
have been recording these events for so many years” and that UFOs
“went from 250 to 1.500 km/h in less then a second”.
Monteiro may also have admitted that, “FAB recorded the whole
incident in magnetic tapes”. All these facts are now further
elaborated by him.
The interviewee is open to the idea of other forms of intelligent
lives, but is also cautious when talking about that. After much
insistence from his interviewers, Monteiro admits that not only him, but
also other high ranking officers, are quite aware that we are being
visited by more advanced cosmic species. “We know that they do not
represent any threat. I am convinced that their approach is aimed to
know us”. Such words become even more meaningful when uttered by
the man responsible for the implementation of the Amazon Surveillance
System (SIVAM) and the privatization of Embraer.
This remarkable interview published by Revista UFO shows readers
that Lieutenant-Brigadie r Socrates da Costa Monteiro is another
important figure in the Brazilian military to acknowledge the
seriousness of ufologists’ mission in researching alien activity on
Earth. He also expresses his support to the campaign UFOs:
Liberdade de Informação Já, an initiative conducted by the Brazilian
Committee of Ufologists (CBU). Following colleagues who
previously spoke through this magazine, Monteiro states that official
institutions should support ufologists in their task to determine the
nature of the UFO phenomenon.
A.J.: Brigadier, I should start by thanking you
for being so kind in receiving us. My first question is: Have you ever
experienced any ufological event, be it in your military career, as a
minister, or in your private life?
S.M.: Well, it depends on what you call a “ufological
event”. But I can say I’ve seen things that caught my attention. Even
my wife was present at one of those occasions. It occurred at that night
in which many objects were seen flying over Rio de Janeiro , Sao Paulo ,
and Sao Jose dos Campos [The Brazilian Official UFO Night].
She was watching the Copacabana beach from the balcony of our flat in
Rio and spotted a bizarre light in the sky. She was surprised, looked to
me and said: “It’s a flying saucer”. When I saw the scene,
especially my wife’s reaction, I joked: “I don’t know what that
is, but if you tell someone I’ll punish you. You didn’t see anything,
you don’t know anything. If you don’t keep quiet, you’ll get into
trouble. I won’t say anything either”. Then I took my powerful
Navy binoculars to better see that light.
A.J.: What did you think that was? As an Air
Force expert you must have rejected any known explanation. ..
S.M.: Actually, I can’t say what that was. Ozires
Silva had a similar experience that same night. You know his story,
right? He was travelling from Brasilia to Sao Jose dos Campos and saw an
unidentified light following his aircraft, an Embraer’s Xingu . Ozires
was interviewed by a TV channel the next day and declared, “That’s true.
The light stood beside me following me for a long time changing from
one side of the aircraft to another”. When I heard that I told him: “Now
you’re in trouble. You won’t be able to hide it from anyone anymore”.
He only laughed. Ozires was a colleague of mine at the military school
and is a very close friend. When my wife heard his account, she said to
him, “That’s it, Ozires. Socrates and I saw that too”. In another
interview he even mentioned that experience I had with my wife. In the
end, the case became well known. However, it would be difficult for me
to give a personal account on the issue, since I have never seen
anything really clear or something I could affirm was not of human
nature. There was never anything I could address by saying: “You are not
a human being. You are an extraterrestrial” . Therefore, I’ve never
seen anything like that, but I’ve seen things in the sky which I call
“electronic anomalies”.
A.J.: And what would be “electronic anomalies”,
Brigadier?
S.M.: Those should be phenomena seen in the sky for
which we do not have a reasonable explanation. Let me explain it better,
when I was a commander to the Centro Integrado de Defesa Aérea e
Controle de Tráfego Aéreo (Cindacta), in Brasilia , there were many
cases. As you know, Cindacta has a very sophisticated operational
system. At the time of its implementation Latin America had only two
similar ones – one was in Mexico City subway, the other one was in Sao
Paulo subway. Cindacta used to integrate all of Brazilian territory in
real time by means of a powerful computer system. We recorded everything
spotted by our radars and all was kept for 30 days. After that we used
to clear the tapes in order to reuse it for new recordings. Sometimes we
had signals on the screen, objects that stopped and moved. We didn’t
know what they were. So we only took notes of all that and, by lacking a
better definition, we only called those artefacts as “electronic
anomalies” [At that time the term “hotel traffic” was not in use]. We
did so because they were electronic signals which we didn’t know how to
interpret.
A.J.:Besides this phenomenon, have you ever
received any reports from locals about UFO sightings?
S.M.: Yes, yes. Sometimes people came to me telling
of things they had seen, both military and civilians. One case was
special, since it seriously involved our facilities. Cindacta had radar
and telecommunication facilities based in Gama, a Brasilia neighbor
city. The commander in that base was Captain Joao Bernardo Vieira. I had
just taken office at Cindacta’s command two months before. So, one
night around 22h00, Vieira called me to report that radars in Gama had
been spotting strange objects. “Commander, it’s full of flying saucers
around here”, he said. Then I told him: “Don’t be a fool, man. What’s
really going on there?” He insisted: “I’m no fool, they are really here,
commander. They are throwing stones at us”. Vieira even said some
soldiers had shot at the object so I ordered them to stop immediately.
“Don’t shoot anything. Get your people inside the barracks, I don’t want
anyone close to that thing”. The objects had glowing lights that
changed in color and moved slowly around them.
A.J.: This is impressive, but how could the
aircraft throw stones at the soldiers? Do you have any explanation for
that?
S.M.: That I don’t know, I only heard Vieira
reporting: “They are throwing stones at us”. I think that a propulsion
object may have raised stones from the ground then soldiers around it
might have thought they were being assaulted. Or it may be that pilots
in that “thing” propelled a strong blast in order to raise stones and
scare the soldiers in order to prevent them from a stronger response.
They have a much more advanced technology and we don’t know how they
would react to our response. Vieira told me around 25 soldiers were
present, so I ordered them to get inside the base and receive a piece of
paper in order to describe exactly what they had seen. “They are
forbidden from talking to one another and you take measures to enforce
that”, I told him. I wanted the soldiers to make their description of
the events and Vieira to bring me their papers at Cindacta at 08h00 the
next day. That’s what he did.
A.J.: Did the shots hit the flying saucers?
S.M.: No.
A.J.: What was the outcome of your
investigation? Was it possible to determine what object was that over
Cindacta radars in Gama?
S.M.: Well, our soldiers are very primitive. As you
know, soldiers are not very educated persons and have difficulties in
precisely describing what they see. But it was possible to tell from
their descriptions and drawings that they had witnessed something weird.
It was something with changing colors that approached them very
closely. One of them asked permission to open fire and that’s how the
shooting began. All told the same story and I wrote that all down in a
report which I sent to the Aeronautics Armed Forces (EMAER). I never
expressed my opinion or made any guesses. The envelope I sent to EMAER
contained all information I had and it was kept somewhere.
A.J.: What does Captain Vieira says about it?
S.M.: I lost contact with him. But recently, in a
medical appointment I met a familiar face who asked me if I still
remembered. Before I could answer, the person smiled and said, “I am
Vieira, Captain from Cindacta in Gama”. Of course I remembered, although
many people had served under my command. “Vieira of the flying
saucer?”, I said. “That’s me”, he replied. The funny thing is that it
happened this week, only a few days before this interview. That was such
a coincidence because I haven’t seen him for the last 20 years or so. I
even told him about our interview and asked if he would also talk and
he agreed, “Tell them to call me” [His interview will be done in a few
weeks].
A.J.: Do you have any other case to tell?
S.M.: Yes. There is another story from a doctor in
Sao Paulo . I had to undergo a medical procedure called
cinecoronoriography which is basically the ingestion of contrasts in
order to visualize whether arteries are open or blocked. I didn’t want
to do that in Rio, so I went to Sao Paulo to be examined at Hospital
Sirio Libanes whose directors I know. I had helped them with problems
regarding the clearance of equipment withheld by Infraero. They imported
machines for medical examination, but didn’t have the money to collect
them at the customs. So we entered an agreement: I would authorize the
clearance provided that they offer free treatment to a number of poor
people. And so we did. They performed well their part in the deal.
A.J.: Then how about the story you have to tell
us?
S.M.: The day following my exams many doctors came to
my room to thank me for that agreement and so we talked. When most of
them had left, one stood in the room and started a chat about UFOs. I
don’t remember his name, but he was very straight to the point,
“Brigadier, can I ask you a question?” I said yes and he went on to say,
“Do you believe in UFOs?” I was surprised and said, “Ah, doctor, that’s
a very common question. I don’t know whether they exist or not, people
believe what they want to believe”. So he told me he was from a
countryside town in the state of Sao Paulo and had witnessed something
there by 02h00 from the balcony of his hotel room, “It was a huge thing
simply descending at the city’s square”. I asked what huge thing was
that and he replied straight away, “It was a flying saucer!” Then he
looked for my advice on what to do and asked if he could tell his story.
I told him yes, he could do as he pleased, but I didn’t want to make
any comments. He described the object and said to be close to it, no
more than 30 meters away. I was impressed by his assertiveness and his
will to state that what he saw was a flying saucer. I have never met him
again and do not even know if he is still at the Hospital.
A.J.: Have you heard of any cases regarding
UFOs escorting airplanes?
S.M.: Yes, sometimes Cindacta radars spot strange
things. For example, pilots flying Brasilia-Sao Paulo route used to
report sightings of lights following their aircraft. We used to make
them the usual questions such as the duration of the event, the altitude
of the objects, things like that. Our questions over the radio aimed to
get more details on what they were claiming to have seen. Then we
reported everything back to the Aeronautics without expressing an
opinion, which was the recommended procedure.
A.J.: The procedure of reporting to EMAER was
an established guideline or was it done at your own will?
S.M.: Well, actually we did like that because we
didn’t know what else to do. And we didn’t express any opinion because
we also didn’t know what to say. If I told them I’d seen a flying
saucer, they [EMBAER officers] would ask me to describe it and I
couldn’t describe anything, since they were all dots on the radar
screen. So I only used to say, “Look, there’s a light here spotted by
the radar. I’ll call it an ‘electronic anomaly’”. That was always the
name I used to give to those phenomena, as I didn’t have a better
definition to give.
A.J.: Are there any cases involving pilots and
UFOs that you could tell us?
S.M.: Some colleagues had told me about lights which
changed colors and followed their aircraft. The lights seemed to come
and go suddenly and at incredible speed. I heard many of these stories
and researched about some as I’m a curious person. For example, I
learned from the USAF’s Blue Book project that many pilots were followed
by anomalies. Some of them even lost their lives, such as the case with
Thomas Mantell, in January 1948. He disappeared after intercepting an
undetected UFO. His aircraft was found in wrecks a few kilometers beyond
the point in which he lost radar contact. Some people don’t believe it,
some others do. Some people believe these are merely meteorological
phenomena. As for myself, I believe that anything is possible.
A.J.: Brigadier, as you know, the Brazilian
Committee of Ufologists (CBU) launched a campaign five years ago aiming
to have an official disclosure of government archives. The campaign
UFOs: Liberdade de Informação has already achieved good results. On 20
May 2005, we were even invited by the Air Force commander, Luiz Carlos
da Silva Bueno, to go to Brasilia and visit Cindacta and Comdabra
facilities.
S.M.: Yes, I know. You were received by Brigadier
Atheneu Azambuja and were allowed to see some documents in a room.
A.J.: Yes, but the authorization was only to
see those documents. We were not allowed to copy any of them. That is
why the campaign still goes on. After a successful beginning we want to
move further. In 2008, the government finally started to release some
files. Those were classified documents and we would like to show them to
you.
S.M.: I am aware that some papers are being
disclosed.
A.J.: Right, and among them there are files
concerning Operação Prato, an operation carried out in the Amazon, in
1977, under Colonel Uyrange Hollanda. At the time he was a Captain, then
was promoted to the rank of Colonel. Among the documents, there are
some from the defunct National Information Service (SNI), which we did
not even know about.
S.M.: As I can see, you’ve probably had access do
documents from EMAER, who starts to disclose their archives. As a
Cindacta commander, I sent alone 25 UFO sighting statements which must
remain there till this day.
A.J.: Were you ever aware of the involvement of
the SNI in cases such as Operação Prato or any other UFO sightings in
Brazil ?
S.M.: No. I knew only about EMAER.
A.J.: How about Operação Prato? What do you
know about it?
S.M.: Not much. I only know it occurred in the
Amazon, in 1977, and was under Brigadier Protasio [Lopes de Oliveira].
As you know, I was a commander to the VII Comando Aéreo Regional (COMAR
VII), in Manaus , and that all happened at the I Comando Aéreo Regional
(COMAR I), which is in Belem .
A.J.: Exactly. Operação Prato was prepared at
COMAR I and carried out at the island of Colares, 80km from Belem.
Documents disclosed show routes, formats, and sizes of UFOs.
S.M.: All these [pointing to papers shown to him] are
official government documents? Did you have access to all that?
A.J.: Yes, we did. These are copies from the
originals and tell of all that happened at that time. Similarly
interesting are the documents recently declassified which account for
the occurrence of 19 May 1986, which had Ozires Silva as a main figure
involved, the so-called Official UFO Nights in Brazil.
S.M.: That’s interesting. I can see here among the
documents regarding that night there’s an incident report signed by
Brigadier Jose Pessoa Cavalcanti de Albuquerque.
A.J.: Yes. In that report he describes how the
objects zigzagged, stopped, reached incredible speed, and so on. It also
states that the objects both chased and were chased by Brazilian jets
[See UFO 160].
S.M.: I see. Decisions at the time were made by the
Comando de Defesa Aérea (CODA), a body responsible for the monitoring of
any non-identified objects which could pose a threat to the country.
CODA was the body in charge of the taking-off of Mirages and F-5Es and
the interception of intruders. There (CODA) is where the search for
anything unusual starts.
A.J.: Now we know that thanks to this document
disclosed by the government. However, there are still some topics
missing in order to illustrate that night. For example, you were the
commander of the IV Comando Aéreo Regional (COMAR IV), in Sao Paulo ,
which was the body directly in charge of the occurrence. Did you follow
the development of the incident?
S.M.: No, I did not. That was the same night my wife
witnessed those objects in Rio and I was with her when Mirages and F-5Es
were launched against the objects in Rio and Sao Paulo . At the same
time, Ozires Silva was on his way from Brasilia to Sao Jose dos Campos
and witnessed the phenomenon.
A.J.: As the commander of COMAR IV didn’t you
follow on the facts? There were statements published at the occasion
which were quoted as being yours. You were quoted as saying that those
facts were long being reported and that FAB was aware of that. That was
all published. What do you have to say about that?
S.M.: Yes, now I remember. What I’m saying is that I
didn’t have the opportunity to witness the event in real time. I only
knew that radars had spotted unusual objects or, again, “electronic
anomalies”. We put that all down in reports that were sent to EMAER,
which was the appropriate reporting mechanism.
A.J.: Did you get any answers from EMAER about
that case or any other event reported to them? Also, did you receive any
instructions as to how to behave in those circumstances?
S.M.: No, but I know how they dealt with it. When
there was nothing to say or no plausible explanation to give, the
reports were sent to the archives awaiting for the day when a possible
explanation could arise.
A.J.: Do you know if at any given time the
government, EMAER or even CODA had established a committee in order to
address these cases?
S.M.: When I was a minister of Aeronautics and
received that kind of reports, I just did as usual: sent them to the
appropriate files containing all of those similar cases. That was a
single folder so that we do not loose the origin of the reports. All was
kept there. When we lacked an explanation, we simply waited for it to
come up one day. I used to give orders for a research, but it was not an
investigation or an inquiry. It was just an informal check-up.
A.J.: Those check-ups were routine or were
applied in only special cases?
S.M.: It happened only in a few cases, when we
consider it worth to investigate. When the description of the event was a
credible one, I tried to search for more concrete data.
A.J.: How were those check-ups conducted?
S.M.: I used to send someone to talk with locals from
the place where the event occurred. We talked to people who might be
linked to what was reported. We also inspected the area followed by the
witness, because such cases normally happened in the rural area or small
cities, not in large urban centers. At least this is what we normally
got. If I’m not mistaken, it has been happening in Brazil since the
1950s, when officers from Gravataí Air Base, state of Rio Grande do Sul,
saw strange objects in the sky at broad day light. I believe that was
in 1954.
A.J.: Were you already in the military at that
time? What was your rank?
S.M.: Yes, I was a Lieutenant at the Air Force. The
event was registered in Gravatai and caused great commotion, since
high-ranking officials like Brigadier Jose Hernani were involved.
A.J.: Brigadier, I’d like to resume the
Brazilian Official UFO Night when jets were sent to intercept the
objects. In that occasion you’ve said that FAB had been recording such
cases for years. You also said that the artefacts went from 250 to 1500
km/h in less than a second, which is confirmed by the documents recently
disclosed by the government. What else can you say about it?
S.M.: My technicians mentioned 4000 km/h, but that
speed is too much for our radars. It makes them loose accuracy.
Therefore, we can not really state that they flew at that speed (4000
km/h). However, they disappeared from radar screens so quickly that
Cindacta’s system registered a not much reliable velocity assessment. We
could not precisely assert 4000 km/h technically speaking. What was
certain is that the objects were at more or less 800 km/h, then suddenly
sped up so quickly that they disappear from radar screens. Our
technicians said that happened at 4000 km/h, but I do not endorse this
assumption.
A.J.: When radars showed that the objects
disappeared in that fashion, did you still think of “electronic
anomalies” as an explanation?
S.M.: Well, I still called it “electronic anomalies”,
because I didn’t have any other name to give to it [laughing about his
own definition].
A.J.: But what do you think those objects were?
What is your opinion?
S.M.: I don’t think anything and do not have a
personal say on that.
A.J.: Have you ever considered those might be
ships from another planet crewed by a superior intelligence?
S.M.: I’d like to think like that. I’d like to be
able to say I believe it, that I’m sure, but I’m kind of skeptic about
things I can not prove. However, if you ask me if I think that is all
fabrication, I’d say no. I don’t think this is the case. But the point
is I can not say what those things are.
A.J.: I would insist in asking you: What do you
think they are?
S.M.: I think it’s very hard to say that nothing can
exist beyond our knowledge or beyond our world. That would be false. I
wish I could say “they” are there, but I still had no opportunity for a
close look. I have no concrete data to give to you regarding those
objects. Believe me, I wish I could join you in order to research this
“thing”, but I’m in no conditions for that.
A.J.: As you said before, FAB had been
recording UFO sightings. Can you tell of any case which had this same
proportions?
S.M.: Yes, I consider the Gravatai case as a
significant occurrence. [See box].
A.J.: Besides Gravatai incident and the
Brazilian Official UFO Night, do you remember any other case in which
jets were sent to intercept UFOs?
S.M.: No, there were none that I remember. Besides,
we had the habit of not commenting on things we could not prove. So we
avoided talks on those cases because we lacked concrete data in order to
identify the nature of those objects. There was also the issue of
meteorological phenomena to be taken into consideration. Some balloons
might reach incredible altitudes.
A.J.: You’re right, but CindactaYou’re right,
but Cindacta radars and experienced jet pilots wouldn’t take one thing
for another...
S.M.: Sure, but every aspect must be considered.
There is a meteorological phenomenon called St. Elmo’s fire, for
example, which is a strong bluish light that can stood still or move.
This one is often seen in cemiteries due to the decomposition of organic
matter. The gas resulting from it generates a bluish light when in
contact with the air. This is what we call St. Elmo’s fire.
A.J.: There were many reports from pilots
seeing the St. Elmo’s fire. However, what they usually describe are more
likely to be associated with ufological occurrences. The foo-fighters
at the II World War are an example.
S.M.: All pilots have already seen the St. Elmo’s
fire in the sky. I have seen it many times. It might even enter the
aircraft and cross through it. I’ve seen it very often over the Amazon
when flying a C-47 or a DC-3 for the Brazilian postal service. I have
more than 2000 hours of flight in that region and witnessed many
electrical storms, which may generate strange phenomena. There is a
number of atmospheric effects to be considered – the electric fire or
the St. Elmo’s fire is only one of those. The light rests at the tip of
the helix, then jumps from one side to another before going away. We got
even afraid of being burned. That happens to me several times. This is
why pilots always think, “It’s the St. Elmo’s fire again, get ready”
when there’s a light in the sky. However, not everything can be
explained like that, since the St. Elmo’s fire is just a small luminous
ball inside the cockpit. There are much larger lights. Anyway, any
commercial pilot flying over 10.000 meters have experienced that.
A.J.: There is another statement allegedly
yours regarding the Brazilian Official UFO night. It says that FAB had
recorded the event in video. Is it true?
S.M.: No. Actually the whole event was registered in
magnetic tapes, not in video. Radars have the ability to record
everything they detect. Then we keep these recordings for 30 days, as I
said before. After that we clear the magnetic tapes not to let them pile
up.
A.J.: Even recordings of an event which
triggered an interception operation in 19 May 1986 were deleted?
S.M.: When there’s something like that we normally
wait a little more before deleting the recordings. Maybe 2 or 3 months.
After that, recordings are deleted for the reasons I’ve already
mentioned. But Cindacta has recorded things like that many times. Not
once or twice, but many times. We always prepared reports and sent them
without any comments, since we didn’t know what or how to explain.
A.J.: Regarding this event or any other, have
you ever been pressured by foreign governments to share information?
S.M.: No. During my time as a minister that never
happened, or it happened without my knowledge.
A.J.: Brigadier Jose Carlos Pereira [See UFO
141 and 142] (EMAER) has already recorded hundreds of ufological
sightings since the 1950s. Do you confirm that?
S.M.: Well, Pereira was a chief of EMAER. Therefore,
these materials were in his desk for him to access anytime he wanted.
A.J.: In recent interviews he states that “it’s
time to end UFO secrecy”, and “secret files on UFOs should be
disclosed”. He firmly supports our campaign UFOs: Liberdade de
Informação Já. What do you think about these statements?
S.M.: I think there are two possible interpretations.
First, we need to disclose the files in order to clarify what the
phenomenon is. Second, this is necessary in order to avoid people saying
we are hiding the truth. I can anticipate people saying, “the
government hides mysterious phenomena from its people”. This is not
true. So files must be opened at once in order to avoid this idea. We
can not remain in an uncomfortable position regarding this issue.
A.J.: Brigadier Pereira says exactly the same.
He even says that people do not fear what is transparent, they fear what
is opaque instead. He further says that the documents can not affect
national security, do not pose a threat to the population and do not
harm the privacy of people involved. Files must be disclosed. Do you
agree with that?
S.M.: No doubt about that. Actually, I didn’t open
(the files) before, as a minister, because I was never asked to do so.
If I were ever asked, I’d have them opened.
A.J.: Would you do so even though they contain
serious incidents such as the Official Night, in which FAB jets were
sent to intercept objects of unknown nature?
S.M.: Yes, even those cases must be disclosed. Note
that jets were launched but could not even approach the objects. We are
talking about UFOs [not mentioning “electronic anomalies” anymore], and
our aircraft could not even get close to them.
A.J.: Do you think such impossibility to
intercept the objects was due to their alleged superior technology?
S.M.: Yes, [that’s why] we could not even get close
to those things which reach thousands of kilometers per hour in less
than a second. Ozires Silva saw that, my wife did, and so did I. As I
described before, there was a bright light standing still in the sky. I
was watching and waiting for it to turn left or right, but it didn’t. My
conclusion was that it was flying directly towards me, although it
seemed to be not moving.
A.J.: What did you think that time?
S.M.: I’m realistic about these matters. All I wanted
was to enter that “thing” and see how that works. This idea had already
gone through my mind long before.
A.J.: What do you mean? When did that happen?
S.M.: In 1950, when I was still a cadet. I was flying
a training session over Barra da Tijuca and saw something similar to a
balloon, as I can describe it. My trainer saw that as well and agreed
that that could be a balloon, but the object suddenly disappeared. Not
long after that, the magazine O Cruzeiro published a report entitled
Disco Voador na Barra da Tijuca (Flying Saucer over Barra da Tijuca). If
you check the magazine archives, you’ll get to the description of what
was seen that day. I think that was the same object I saw during my
training along with other colleagues. O Cruzeiro even mentioned that a
group of aircraft flying that zone might have spotted the object. They
were talking about us.
A.J.: Indeed, a passage in Fernando Cleto Nunes
Pereira’s book A Bíblia e os Discos Voadores (The Bible and the UFOs)
[Editora Ediouro, 1986], says that a cadet from Campo dos Afonsos would
have seen the UFO pictured by magazine O Cruzeiro.
S.M.: It might be me or any other cadet. I saw that
“thing” at Barra da Tijuca, which could be a balloon. That happened at
the same time and same place in which the UFO was photographed. To my
understanding, that was a balloon. However, when O Cruzeiro hit the
stands the next Sunday, the report defined that as a flying saucer. I
didn’t see anything that seemed like a saucer, but only a balloon, as I
can describe it. [When inquired about it, the interviewee revealed he
was never aware of the controversy surrounding Ed Keffel’s pictures of
an alleged UFO. Ed Keffel was a reporter for O Cruzeiro and worked in
partnership with Joao Martins. Those pictures are considered to be a
hoax by most of the Brazilian ufology community].
A.J.: Was the object just hanging still in the
air? Didn’t it move to any direction?
S.M.: When you are flying, it’s difficult to observe
the movement of other things in the sky. It’s hard to tell if that moved
or not.
A.J.: Brigadier, you already know that our main
wish today is having government ackowledgement of UFOs existence as
well as the disclosure of official archives. Brazilian ufologists also
want to establish a research committee to work in cooperation with Air
Force officials, be them retired or not. We wish to conduct joint
operations for case analysis aiming both military and civil data files.
Can we count on your support for that?
S.M.: Of course you can. Sure. As for the Aeronautics
as an institution I think that, if you’re able or lucky to reach most
concrete data, they will use you in order to find explanations or
collect more information.
A.J.: How do you suggest we could approach the
Aeronautics with such a proposal for a joint work?
S.M.: It maybe by finding out more new facts.
A.J.: We have hundreds of facts. What we need
now is an institutional and bureaucratic breakthrough so that our idea
is officially made into effect.
S.M.: How did you get access to all these information
you’ve just brought to show me?
A.J.: We made formal requests to the
Aeronautics and many other bodies as part of procedures put in place
after the Carta de Brasilia and, later on, by the Dossiê UFO Brasil [See
UFO 155 and 158]. Most of materials were released by the Centro de
Documentação e Histórico da Aeronáutica (Cendoc).
S.M.: If that was the case, I believe you should
follow on the same path. The body you said to have released most of
materials is, in fact, the most accessible one to that kind of proposal.
I’ll see what I can get to you in that sense.
A.J.: We thank you very much for that.
Regarding the time you served in Manaus as a commander to the VII
Comando Aéreo Regional (COMAR VII), was there any UFO sighting you could
tell us about?
S.M.: No. Despite the intense air traffic in that
area, I didn’t get any information of that kind. Roraima’s Boa Vista
airport used to be the most requested one in Brazil that time due to
mining activities in the region. There were more than 200 daily flights,
normally monomotors. There was a huge exploration of cassiterite at
that time.
A.J.: Such an aircraft traffic demands extreme
caution on the part of controllers, isn’t it?
S.M.: Yes. That’s the reason why after two months in
office as a minister I took the president to the region and proposed him
the implementation of a surveillance system in order to keep track of
anything that happens in the Amazon. This is what we know today as
Sistema de Vigilância da Amazônia (SIVAM). It was prepared by the Armed
Forces in order to monitor the air space in all of that area. The
initiative has its civil part, which is denominated Sistema de Proteção
da Amazônia (SIPAM). The president accepted the suggestion and the
system was put in place years later.
A.J.: When SIVAM started operations you were
not at the Ministry anymore, correct? Despite that fact, didn’t you know
of any occurrence in the Amazon, either through civil or military
pilots?
S.M.: No, nothing. That time there was nothing in the
Amazon, only rains.
A.J.: Regarding the Official Night, there is
another question. Some sectors in the press attempted to discredit the
importance of the case, while others argued that the Air Force would
never launch 7 jet fighters to intercept something of little importance.
In fact, an operation like that would be too expensive.
S.M.: Of course they wouldn’t. However, this kind of
interception operation is short. There’s no interception lasting 2 or 3
hours. It normally takes no more than 30 or 40 minutes. The aircraft
goes, checks, identifies the target or not, then returns to the base.
But you’re right, the costs are really high.
A.J.: So you mean the Aeronautics would never
deploy jets if the case was not very serious?
S.M.: They would not, but let me tell you a story.
During the conflict in Malvinas islands, in 1982, I was a commander at
Cindacta when we spotted an aircraft entering Brazilian air space from
the North, through Belem region. We knew that was a Russian Ilyushin
flying from Havana to Buenos Aires whose route crossed Brazilian air
space. We didn’t know the pilot, but we knew the Cuban ambassador to
Argentina was onboard carrying US$ 200,000 – and that I don’t know what
for. The aircraft entered Brazilian skies without contacting controllers
in Brasilia . The Military Operations Center immediately launched two
Mirage against the intruder. It was a Thursday, a day before Good
Friday, with a heavy storm falling over Brasilia . The air strip was
dark, we had lost the lights. So we put lamps on in order to make the
taking-off possible. The Mirage would take off at 22h00 in order to
intercept the Cuban aircraft. They ordered the intruder to come back and
land in Brasilia , but their pilots pretended not to listen. Then the
Mirages turned on their lights behind the Cuban aircraft and its pilots
understood they had no other choice. So they returned and landed in
Brasilia . What I want to say is that our system for interception really
works! [emphatic] However, if the HIlyushin had not landed in Brasília,
we wouldn’t know what to do, because none of our authorities would have
the courage to authorize an attack against the intruder. Now it’s a
different situation because we have a legislation regulating the
possibility of putting an intruder down.
A.J.: On 19 May 1986, Brazilian jets could not
force the UFOs to land. The recently disclosed report tells how every
jet was launched, what they saw, and how they unsuccessfully tried to
approach the objects. There were times when they turned from hunter to
prey. One of the UFOs reached 180 km in a matter of seconds going
Atlantic Ocean inwards at Sao Paulo coast, then turned back to chase
Brazilian jets.
S.M.: That’s true. What we see is that one can not
approach these objects. During this specific incident, pilots tried many
times, but UFOs simply sped up and left them behind.
A.J.: Impressive. And all was recorded by
ground and cockpit radars. The UFOs were being observed both by the
pilots and Ozires Silva.
S.M.: Those were “visual electronic anomalies”
[laughing each time more when quoting the term].
A.J.: Have you had the chance to talk to those
pilots or other military involved, such as the commander of Comando de
Defesa Aérea (CODA), Major Ney Cerqueira, now a retired Colonel? Or have
you talked to the then minister of Aeronautics, Brigadier Octavio
Moreira Lima ?
S.M.: No. I didn’t talk to them because I had no
intentions of carrying out a profound investigation on that. I knew it
would lead us nowhere.
A.J.: How did you know it would lead you
nowhere?
S.M.: Because it was always like this, at least here
in Brazil .
A.J.: But researching takes us somewhere, at
least.
S.M.: Yes. One day we’re going to get there.
A.J.: Sources say that 21 round-shaped objects,
100m in diameter each, were involved. Such a massive manifestation of
UFOs wouldn’t be a threat to national security, to civil air traffic,
especially at the time of the occurrence?
S.M.: No, we knew there wasn’t any threat. We were
convinced that their intention was to know better.
A.J.: To know what or who? Us?
S.M.: Yes, to know us.
A.J.: So it means you admit “they” exist and
are intelligent beings trying to know us.
S.M.: Well, they were electronic anomalies [laughing
even more]...
A.J.: At a time when even the government
discloses information it’s becoming more and more difficult to deny it,
isn’t it?
S.M.: My friends, I can assure you one thing: if I
had any concrete evidence about the reality of UFOs, I would pass it on
to you immediately. Unfortunately I don’t have any, but I do know a lot
of credible people who experienced the phenomenon and I can give you
their names. For example, Jose Aluizio Borges, a general manager to
Banco Real. He was at his farm near Campo Grande (MS) and saw a flying
saucer. “It was a huge light that crossed in front of us in the middle
of the night”, he told me [that witness was not found to give his
interview].
A.J.: So your friend was impressed just like
you when you saw that light together with your wife?
S.M.: Yes. Humans are naturally inclined to look for
the unknown. Brazilians have such inheritance from the Portuguese
people. Some 300 years ago, someone called Bartolomeu Gusmao did
something incredible. He made a small balloon go up inside the
Portuguese royal palace, so that he could prove his point that flying
was possible. Before that, when he was only describing what he would do,
everybody laughed. Then, when people saw the balloon going up, they
started to clap. Gusmao then asked the king’s permission to develop that
means of transport. After him, how many people got inspired to conduct
similar experiments? Would you believe that someone thought about that
means of transport 300 years ago?
A.J.: You have mentioned the event within
Cindacta facilities in Gama. Do you know of any other case in which UFOs
were shot at by the military? Do you know of any jet fighters having
targeted objects in the air?
S.M.: I don’t know any case of that. Actually, at the
time we followed the doctrine of non-aggression.
A.J.: That doctrine was enforced by whom?
S.M.: By no one. That was just a logical conclusion,
once we knew that an artefact capable of such flying maneuvers could
never be hit. It would be even crazy on our part to attempt anything
against it. We knew that and no one would be fool enough to try an
attack. That “thing” could simply pulverize us with a beam of light.
However, we were never prevented from trying to approach the ships in
order to see them closely. Actually, all the military were dying to see a
UFO at close range.
A.J.: Was that a formal doctrine within your
regulations?
S.M.: No, it was rather informal. It was a natural
behaviour for pilots and commanders. One would ask, “Hey, would you
shoot that?” and the other would reply, “Of course not. I’m not stupid”.
In fact, as we didn’t believe one could get even close to those
objects, we never had a procedure to be adopted in these cases.
A.J.: Brigadier Jose Carlos Pereira confirms
that on the Official Night Mirages and F-5Es were carrying missiles.
Didn’t they have the intention to fire?
S.M.: No. They had missiles because that was a
mission for interception when all aircraft take off carrying weapons.
That was just in case, because if force is needed we must be ready
whether to defend or to attack.
A.J.:Wasn’t there any fear on the part of the
military that the jets could be viewed as a threat by the UFOs?
S.M.: Yes, I feared that. I wanted we to check, but
not to get much closer [The interviewee falls into contradiction, since
we previously stated he couldn’t have followed the Official Night
because he was in Rio ]. Also, how could they know we carried weapons?
A.J.: Maybe they have technology enough to
detect it.
S.M.: Yes, it can be. Technology is an interesting
point. We know that our limit is the speed of light, for now. However,
we shall cross that frontier one day. Only then maybe we can understand
what is happening today.
A.J.: Brigadier, what do you say about all the
huge amount of documents still held at official archives? What should be
done about that?
S.M.: What should be done is what is being done, that
is, the disclosure triggered by ufologists. The government should call
for intelligent people who are interested in the subject and put those
materials in their hands – or at least facilitate their access to those
files.
A.J.: Do you support our campaign UFOs:
Liberdade de Informação Já which calls for the government to open those
files?
S.M.: You can be sure about that! Files must be
opened and you should go on with your campaign towards the government in
order to make that happen [emphatic]. Then you come to tell me what
you’ve got besides what you already have now.
Source: Theufochronicles.com
