Agenda 21

mudra wrote:I don't think the problem  lies in ownership but rather in being stripped away from what you have honestly produced. Either maliciously, forcefully without your consent and doing same to others. This is robbery. Suppression of ownership and dishonesty are the problem.
As we share and exchange ideas we share and exchange the products of our ideas too. I think it is something natural to do and a very valuable one when done willingly and spontaneously.  

Love from me
mudra

You make a good point.  This is about willingness to share without expectation of return.  That comes down to individual choice.  We've been brought up and influenced by a competitive, diseased society/culture.  This is about fundamentally changing the way we've been taught to think.

If money wasn't in the picture, how would most people choose?

All those problems you list are the result of a money-based system in play.  Money/trade/barter is what's behind the so-called 'suppression of ownership' and dishonesty.

If I produce something (what's honesty got to do with it?), I like to be acknowledged for what I produced, but that says more about my ego than anything.  Beyond that, I think the idea behind it can't be mine to own.  I take ideas from others all the time.  And, it seems I pull ideas out of the ether...  The way I choose to express myself is unique, but that's about it.  I've been influenced by so many amazing people, places, things... it would be impossible to acknowledge them all.  This is how I know I can't 'own' an idea.  I take this a step further and question how anything can be owned.

Imitation may be the highest form of flattery, but money needs to be removed from the equation to eliminate profiteering/disparity.

In the meantime, I do my best not to be concerned about it and share what I can.  And, I am grateful for whatever I can get.  Just think?  Where would I be without other people's LOLcats?

Pris wrote:

[size=16]You make a good point.  This is about willingness to share without expectation of return.  That comes down to individual choice.  We've been brought up and influenced by a competitive, diseased society/culture.  This is about fundamentally changing the way we've been taught to think.

If money wasn't in the picture, how would most people choose?

All those problems you list are the result of a money-based system in play.  Money/trade/barter is what's behind the so-called 'suppression of ownership' and dishonesty.

mudra wrote:

Pris wrote:

You make a good point.  This is about willingness to share without expectation of return.  That comes down to individual choice.  We've been brought up and influenced by a competitive, diseased society/culture.  This is about fundamentally changing the way we've been taught to think.

If money wasn't in the picture, how would most people choose?

All those problems you list are the result of a money-based system in play.  Money/trade/barter is what's behind the so-called 'suppression of ownership' and dishonesty.

No I don't think it's that simple Pris. Suppression of ownership and dishonesty would also occur in a moneyless, tradeless or barterless system when scarcity arises. Money puts a symbolic value on things but things have a value of their own which is their necessity level, the use they have. There should be no problem to share without expectation of return when you have more than enough an amount of apples in your cellar but if you only have only one to feed yourself and family with that will change the attitude completely. But those that are starving and don't have one apple at all would probably take it from you.  

It is important  to understand the value of things for this allows to be responsible for them  and then learn to be creative about it so as to generate abundance.

Love from me
mudra

...we must achieve a level of production that's so high that scarcity no longer exists.

Pris wrote:


[size=16]I really don't 'get' your 'suppression of ownership' concern... that can only happen in a scarcity environment and that would be eliminated when you remove money/barter/trade.

The 'value' placed on things based on whose yardstick?  Everything is of equal value.  The lie we're taught is everything has different value.  This is 'scarcity thinking' and it exists because of the monetary system.  They go hand-in-hand.  We're way too smart for this nonsense.  Nature is about abundance, not scarcity.  It really is that simple -- when we cooperate, contribute, and share -- without 'value' placed on anyone or anything, there will be abundance for all.

mudra wrote:

Pris wrote:


I really don't 'get' your 'suppression of ownership' concern... that can only happen in a scarcity environment and that would be eliminated when you remove money/barter/trade.

The 'value' placed on things based on whose yardstick?  Everything is of equal value.  The lie we're taught is everything has different value.  This is 'scarcity thinking' and it exists because of the monetary system.  They go hand-in-hand.  We're way too smart for this nonsense.  Nature is about abundance, not scarcity.  It really is that simple -- when we cooperate, contribute, and share -- without 'value' placed on anyone or anything, there will be abundance for all.

I can't think with this A=A=A=A reasoning regarding the value of things Pris. To me everything isn't of equal value. Everything that is useful has value on a general level but there is a specific value things have that are  directly related to one's need for them. Hence values go hand in hand with demand despite money being attributed to them or not.
If you strictly apply this to food not all foods have the same value but rather each food has a value of it's own that when properly combined will keep your body healthy. My own values regarding things fluctuate across the day according to my needs. I highly value a bed to lay on at night when I am tired but don't pay attention to it the rest of the time. I will highly value an orange or any other food that contains vit C when my body craves for it but not otherwise.
There is no demand without a lack . This is what generates cooperation, contribution and share .Otherwise things would remain static. This is what puts energy in motion. If there is abundance then fine it will only mean the lacks of everyone concerned when they arise would be able to be fulfilled right away.
Regarding food I know abundance can easily be obtained with permaculture as I have seen luxurious gardens coming out from farming with nature so I am not surprise the Ubuntu villages are able to have a surplus that they can then trade.

Love from me
mudra

I appreciate this chance to discuss this subject with you, mudra.  Solutions may be simple, but that doesn't mean they're easy to implement.  Some ideas are a challenge for me to put into words because it requires such a different way of thinking than I've been used to for a great part of my life.  Everything requires practice.  Please be patient because I'm learning as I go and I may not always use the best terminology.  I'm doing my best.  

Does an apple have more value than an orange?  Does soil have more value than a worm?  Does a brain surgeon have more value in society than a plumber?  Does gold have more value than a loaf of bread?  Comparisons like this don't make any sense, but we do it all the time because of how we've been indoctrinated into the current society/culture.  If anything, we generally lack gratitude because of it.  In contrast, when we consider everything to have equal value -- to be just as important as everything else, we learn to have deep gratitude for everything without judgement.  There may be more need for something at any given moment than something else, but that doesn't mean it has more value over something else.

Your range of your thought is limited by the dominant values of your society, so learning to be flexible in values takes a long time.

In a non-monetary-based society -- a resource-based society, people have access to anything that they need, somewhat like a public library.  They can go down and access a camera or a bicycle or a wristwatch -- anything that they need is available without a pricetag.  That would mean we must achieve a level of production that's so high that scarcity no longer exists.

Many people wonder what would drive people if they have access to all their needs... What would happen to incentive?  What will motivate people... or something gained -- what's the gain?  Although the gain is that materials are available, what will motivate them on to do better than what they have?  Need.  We will always lack, meaning, that we cannot achieve perfection, we cannot achieve truly dynamic equilibrium.  We will always be in some form of disequilibrium.  With the elimination of scarcity, the essential incentives change toward problem-solving in general.

When nations or groups of people do not have access to resources, their behaviour is difficult to manage.  It becomes aberrant, they lose their mental equilibrium, they cannot arrive at appropriate conclusions.  Once people are free -- mentally, of debt, obligation, servitude -- then they can seek new horizons that they've never even drempt possible before.

Mudra, I'm honoured.  Thank you!







You have such strength, wisdom, and balance.
I can see why you like this picture.
It matches you.

Carol wrote:

Raising your vibration

mudra wrote:

Thank You Carol
I like the last one best  

Love from me
mudra