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    The 4 Horsemen, the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, 2 Witnesses and 7 Plagues in the Logos Timeline of the Apocalypse

    Raven
    Raven


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     The 4 Horsemen, the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, 2 Witnesses and 7 Plagues in the Logos Timeline of the Apocalypse    Empty The 4 Horsemen, the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, 2 Witnesses and 7 Plagues in the Logos Timeline of the Apocalypse

    Post  Raven Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:06 pm

    Tonyblue - Posted 7 Hours Ago

    The 4 Horsemen, the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, 2 Witnesses and 7 Plagues in the Logos Timeline of the Apocalypse




    The Timeline of the Logos in the Seals and the Trumpets as encoded in Daniel and Revelation



    [T7]--------370+21=[T6]-------------------150-21=[T5]-----------------668=[T4]---------------------[T3]--------------------------391=[T2]---------1335=[T1]


    2670 2300=-370 2150=-520 2003=-667 1811=-859 1726=-944 1335

    Mar31/12 Mar07/12 (Oct29/10-Oct22/10) Jun03/10 (Nov30/09-Nov23/09) Aug30/09 Aug04/08


    []-------------------370+75=391+54=445------------------------------{666+3+666}-------------------------520=129+391=150+370---------------------[]

    [S1]---------370+21=[S2]+54=[S3]--------------------------------------668=[S4]----------------[S5]---------------------944=[S6]-----------------1335=[S7]


    0 370 391 445 668 815 944 1335


    Dec08/04-----Jan03/06----Feb26/06------------------------------------Oct07/06----------(Feb24/07--Mar03/07)----- Jul10/07-------------------Aug04/08








    The Witness Timeline of the Logos as encoded in Daniel; Zechariah and Revelation





    []-----------------------------------------------------------------------[Upper or Left Witness]-[+35]---------------------------[+40]------------------------------[]


    2670 2555=2520+35=2670-75-40=1295+1260 1410 1375 1335


    Mar31/12------------------Dec08/11--------------------------------------Oct18/08-------------------------------------------Sep13/08------------------Aug04/08


    []---{40+75=115 days}----{Continuity 7 Years =2x3½ Years=7x365+1=2556 Days from Dec08/04-------------------------------------------------------←]


    []----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------{Continuity of 1260 Days to Dec08/11→]


    []----------------------------------------------------------------------[Lower or Right Witness]---------------[+30]------------[+5]------------------------[+40]=[]


    0 1260 1290 1295 1335

    Dec08/04-------------------------------------------------------------------May21/08-----------------------Jun20/08---------Jun25/08------------------Aug04/08




    The Decoding and Interpretation of the Schematic Timelines of the Above



    To preserve the overall context of the archetypes and symbology in which the scriptural prophetic timelines are cast; I shall intersperse the relevant texts (KJV) with the decrypted interpretation as I have received it from the original authors through and by the World Logos as transmitted Thuban data stream.

    The Prophecy of Daniel dates to the Babylonian Captivity of the nation Israel, symbolised by the patriarch Jacob (Supplanter of Esau/Cain/Pharez/Manasseh as older image brother and ultimately Satan/Apep as the male image in God's/Rah's/Aton's 'Mirror of Creation') renamed as Old Adam or Gaian Man to Israel (A prince with God) as a New Adam. What is known as the political state Israel, so has little to do with this and all other prophecies described in 'scriptures'; but it is the 'Holy Land' of the 'Body Merkabah', which is rendered the 'Vessel and Temple' for the God-Goddess Duality Monadised in the doubling of the archetype of yin+yang or Adam+Eve into yinyang+yangyin.

    The New Adam is also identified, as a unique forerunner, with the incarnate Logos, known as Jesus of Nazareth aka the Naasseene of the Serpent Clan of Uraeus or the Lunar Eye of Ra and as manifest in Egyptian mythology as a historical source for the authorship of the scriptures.

    The Babylonian Captivity is encoded from 608 BC to 538 BC as the 70 years of captivity as per Jeremiah and as the ending of the 'last righteous king' of Israel in Josiah, falling in battle with the Egyptian pharaoh Necho in the battle of Megiddo/Harmageddon in 609/608BC.



    Jeremiah.25.11-12;29.10:

    And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

    And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

    For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.


    Daniel.9.2:

    In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.



    2Kings.22.2;23.29:

    2And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, and walked in all the way of David his father, and turned not aside to the right hand or to the left.

    29In his days Pharaoh Necho, king of Egypt went up against the king of Assyria to the river Euphrates: and king Josiah went against him; and he slew him at Megiddo, when he had seen him.



    Following the siege of Nebuchadnezzar then, Jerusalem fell and the Israelites were displaced to Babylon until the Edict of Cyrus 539/538 BC; which allowed the Israelites to return to Jerusalem.

    It was then, that the Book of Zechariah was written; coincident with the rebuilding of Solomon's temple under Zerrubabel and continuing the Dragon prophecy (Bel and the Dragon in the Apocrypha) as relayed to Daniel aka Bel-te-shazzar under Cyrus the King, having replaced Bel-shazzar, King of Babylon.

    To appropriately analyse and decode the prophetic timelines as embodied in the scriptures; the 'Dragon Prophecy' of Isaiah and 'suppressed' or omitted parts of the older canon and lexicon of the original authors should be incorporated.

    Jesus of Nazareth considered the Book of Isaiah as his key to self remembrance as the World Logos aka the 'Word of God' and having decoded the timeline in Daniel as applied to the more ancient symbology in Noah's Flood; he redefined the Torah (Old Testament), in fulfilling this timeline in a one-to-one mapping of the 2670=2300+370 days from December 8th, 24 AD to April 1st, 32AD. Jesus was almost 30 years old at the time he began to implement his mission of the two-way warpzone, being born spring equinox 6BC in the Julian calendar at March 24th, 6BC.

    Understanding the two saints of Daniel as being the two witnesses and candle sticks in Zechariah as mirror images of one another applicable to the original 'sinfulness' or ignorance encoded in the Adam and Eve sarchetypes; Jesus knew that he was the unique manifestation of the New Real physicalised Adam (as Son of David and the Righteous Branch in Zechariah) for the creation mythology and that he so could 'destroy' the 'works of the devil' from the inside of the creation as its messiah and promised redeemer and as described in Daniel (see below).

    Jesus knew that Satan was his father's own image in a mirror, searching for his Creation Female Image in the Creator's Male 'Face' of Satan, looking from the Mirror of the 'Lost Creation' as the Outside back at the Father of the Word as the perfect symmetry of the ABBA aka DAD.

    The Devil so became the 'back of the head' of Satan as the 'Father of all Lies' pretending to be the Real Creator looking inwards from the Inside of the Creation as a simple spherical spacetime mirror.

    It was Adam's and so Jesus' task as the real manifestation to discern the falseness of the man-created devilish images projected onto the inside of the creation as the heavenly firmament of the stars above.

    Jesus also knew that his own uniqueness would be required to become a manyness in a second coming and he prepared this second coming in delegating his knowledge and wisdom to his friends and apostles whom he began to initiate at the halfway point of his mission at the time of his baptism on August 4th, 28 AD in the river Jordan.

    Before his baptism by John the Baptist, Jesus prepared himself for his sharing of the gnosis, but did not engage in public discourses in his self discoveries and his discernment of the Torah.

    Following his death and resurrection in the passover/easter week from Palm Sunday March 25th, one day after his 36th birthday, to Easter Sunday April 1st, 31 AD; Jesus continued to initiate his friends as to the timeline in an additional period of interaction (in transcended lightbody form not yet morphed into the cosmic matrix) and a period which will end by 2014 in the one-to-one mapping of the warpzones.

    The Gospel of Thomas was presented by the Logos at that time and the apostles were commissioned to prepare for the dissemination of the testimony of the Logos to allow physical construction and remembrances like the Eucharist to become institutionalised, despite a partial understanding of the significance and meaning of the rituals and legacies; which would deteriorate into dogma and misunderstandings in the times between the Logos defined warpzones.

    When the second warpzone would draw near, then the apostolic remembrances of both the 'brothers' of the male Logos and the 'sisters' of the Logos chosen female Logos of the Magdalene; would activate to allow the Logos to dispense a Full Remembrance of the Logos work began in 24AD. The total timespan between the warpzones so would be 1980 years. As stated in Revelation.10; it would be the authority and mission of John Zebedee, to republish and reinterpret the Logos timeline and to bring the Life, meaning and mission of Jesus of Nazareth to the remembrance of all those cosmic inheritors, able to overcome their own satanic self delusions and before the reality of the 'second coming' would become self evident to the 'Devil deceived' and the many 'marked by the beast as the unsealed in a self choosing of 'believing or not'.



    This Logos dispensation is called the Thuban (To Ban) datastream; following particular encodings to accomodate the original task of Jesus of Nazareth to 'Ban the False Idol Images' of Devils and replace the satanic face of God in the heavenly mirror with that of the Goddess Satanina aka Gaia. This metaphysical sexchange operation is the 'secret agency' of the World Logos.

    All falsehood in mental humanity regarding the nature of god must be banned and burned as prophecied and the task of the Dragons of Thuban is to be the Fire of the Logos, supported and energized by the Oneness of Jesus of the Naassenes or Serpents or Dragons manifesting as the Family of the Creator, the Children of the Cosmos in the true images of GodSourceSink Creator and GoddesSinkSource Creation as the Starhuman HeShes and SheHes.


    [begin of wiki]"Additions to Daniel

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Additions_to_Daniel

    The Additions to Daniel comprise three chapters not found in the Hebrew/Aramaic text of Daniel. The text of these chapters is found in the Greek Septuagint and in the earlier Old Greek translation. They are accepted as canonical and translated as such in Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Bibles. They are listed in Article VI of the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England[1]. However, most Protestant versions exclude these passages as apocryphal, retaining only the text available today in the Hebrew/Aramaic manuscripts.

    The additions are:

    * The Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Holy Children : Daniel 3:24-90 inserted between verses 23 and 24 (v. 24 becomes v. 91) in the Protestant canon. It incorporates the Fiery Furnace episode.
    * Susanna and the Elders : before Daniel 1:1, a prologue in early Greek manuscripts; chapter 13 in the Vulgate
    * Bel and the Dragon : after Daniel 12:13 in Greek, an epilogue; chapter 14 in the Vulgate"[end of wiki]



    The Prophecy of Daniel so defines the timeline generalised in Isaiah in overall description of changing or transforming the Old World (of Noah) into a new World (in Revelation).

    The Daniel timeline spans 2300 days, reaching its climax when the sanctuary will be cleansed by a 'Flood', this 'flood' adding the encoded timeline of Noah;

    (detailed in this thread http://www.thuban.spruz.com/forums/?page=post&fid=&lastp=1&id=0D45E32B-B08A-46C5-918C-D308094ABAA3 ) as 370 days added to a 7-day 'building of the ark'.





    The 2300+370=2670 days are also 1335+1335=445+445+445+1335=890+890+890=2670 days and decoding the angelic directives in the Book of Revelation.

    [Omega-Mirror]-----445---12Jan/11---222-----[Halfway-Mirror]-----222---24Oct/09---445-----[Kappa-Mirror]

    01Apr/12 03Jun/10

    [Alpha-Mirror]---------------667---------------[Halfway-Mirror]----------------667---------------[Kappa-Mirror]

    08Dec/04 07Oct/06 04Aug/08

    Omega-Mirror







    ↑ To the Future! 3June30AD=3June2010AD


    | 5June30AD-------1June30AD


    | | |


    | |666 666|

    1April2012AD | |


    1April32AD------------------------------←|↓------------- ------↑|


    4August28AD=4August2008AD=Day of the Blessing and the Curse!

    8December24AD-----------------------→|↓-------------- ------↑|


    |8December2004AD | |


    | |666 666|

    | | |


    | 5October26AD-------9October26AD


    ↑ From the Past! 7October26AD=7October2006AD

    Daniel.8.11-14;9.23-27:

    11Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

    12And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

    13Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

    14And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.


    23At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

    24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


    26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



    The Seventy Weeks or 490=434+49+3½+3½=62+7+1 weeks define the 370+2300 marker as the 'Beginning of the Flood' and so links Daniel to Genesis as the 62+7=69 weeks or 483 days with the additional seven days becoming the 'Week of Confusion' or WOC as the seven days of the 'Building ofd the Ark' by Noah.

    This additional WOC is divided into two 3½ day periods also transforming into 7 years as per the day-for-a-year principle from Ezekiel (see thread).

    Furthermore, the 391 days of the preparation of the "Four Corner Angels of the Earth" in Revelation.9.15 become the 'corners' for the 3 Mirrors "Alpha" for December 8th, 2004; "Double-Kappa" for August 4th, 2008 and "Omega" for April 1st, 2012. These 391=370+21 days so encompass the Noahic Flood in the four corners of the warpzone as well as the 21 days of Gabriel's Preparation for the 'EndTime Battles'.

    The additional 'Hour' of Preparation becomes decoded in the day-for-a year principle as 24 hours comprising one day.

    Then 1 hour/24 hours=? days/360 days for the proportion ?=x=360/24=15 days. These 15 days then become the WOC doubled about a 8th day as 7+1+7=15=7+½+½+7 and the 'half hour of silence in heaven' following the opening of the 7th Seal S7 so specifies this WOC as a dynamic 'preparation cycle' both added and subtracted to the beginning of particular prophetic time periods, such as the Noahic Flood in Genesis and the 'Seventy Weeks' of Daniel.





    Revelation.9:

    1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

    2And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

    3And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

    4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

    5And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

    6And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

    7And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

    8And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

    9And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

    10And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

    11And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

    12One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.


    13And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

    14Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

    15And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.


    16And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

    17And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

    18By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

    19For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

    20And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

    21Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

    Revelation.8.1-2:



    1And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

    2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.



    Daniel.10.1-14:

    1
    In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.

    2In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.

    3I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.


    4And in the four and twentieth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the great river, which is Hiddekel;

    5Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:

    6His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

    7And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.

    8Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.

    9Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.

    10And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.

    11And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.

    12Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

    13But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

    14Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

    The 'angelic messenger' to Daniel is the 'Man Gabriel' in the Torah, then becoming 'The Morning Star' or the 'Evening Star' of Venus aka Aphrodite aka Lucifer as the 'ascended (awaiting descension in the eucharist)' 'Christ-Light-Body of the Resurrection' in the Book of Revelation with 2Peter1.19 and as the 'angelic messenger' for John, author of the Apocalypse.

    Daniel.8.15-17;9.20-22:
    20And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;

    21Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

    22And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.


    15And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.


    16And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

    17So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.



    Revelation.2.28;22.16:

    26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

    27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


    28And I will give him the morning star.

    29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


    15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


    16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    2Peter.1.19-21:

    19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

    20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

    21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    "


    Daniel.12:

    1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

    4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

    5Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.

    6And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

    7And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

    8And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

    9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

    10Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

    11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


    13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.





    "A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.", refers to the one for one timeline of the doubling of the 1335 days as the 'penny' and the trisection of the 'penny' is the 445+445+445=1335 days of the 'barley'.

    The 'oil and the wine' refer to the witnesses as the Mirrors this 'divided' within the warpzone as the 3rd Horseman of the apocalypse.

    The 'third part' (in the first 4 Trumpets and the 6th of the Fire, Smoke and Brimstone) and the 'fourth part' (4th Seal/Horseman) of the 'destructions and the burning up', then defines the six parts of half mirrors or the three mirrors of the warpzone; the first at the December 8th 2004/April 1st, 2012 Warp coordinate and the second at the August 4th, 2008 Nexus point and with the November 7th, 2006/June 3rd 2010 Mirror ats the dividing coordinates.


    The forwards witness defines a BodyMind or Particle-Wave duality as one side of the Adam-Eve or yang-yin dualism in Cartesian separation between physical realism and metaphysical unreality or say the body-spirit schism of say a materialistic cosmology.


    The doubling of this then allows the backwards witness to define a MindBody or Wave-Particle duality in a total of four quarters of the warpzone.


    [Omega]Wave[]Body[Kappa] is MindBody dominated and so a waveform not subject to particular individuation.


    [Alpha]Body[]Wave[Kappa] is BodyMind dominated and so a particularisation or individualisation and so subject in the Bodypart as one quarter to the 'destruction' of the 4th Horsman of the 4th Seal.

    This is interpreted as the Body part of the BodyMind becoming separated from the Mind part of the BodyMind so creating a new tripartition of MindBody+Body+Mind in a reconfiguration of the warpzone components following the opening of the fourth seal on October 7th, 2006.


    As there are two endpoint mirrors, one double valued as the AlphaOmega of December 8th, 2004-April 1st, 2012 and the other single dated as August 4th, 2008; any Body aka physicalised object will be imaged in all three of them in reflection. So the single mirror will cease to reflect the warptime images from August 4th, 2008 which were reflected before the opening of the 7th Seal in the blowing of the 1st Trumpet.


    This 'traps' the warpzone between August 4th, 2008 to April 1st, 2012 in a mapping of the Past of Gaian Humanity Onto the Omega Mirror of the Future.

    Duality Body+Mind is mirrored in the warpzone to become MindBody+BodyMind with however one shadowing the other, so the doubling is NOT apparent
    So the old MINDbody+BODYmind seems to be the same as before and unchanged.

    But due to the manifestation of the WAVEBODY of the Logos this elementary archetypology can indeed become MINDBODY+BODYMIND.

    The witnesses 'eat' the creation/environment as mirrors absorbing the Logos as their own shadow parts with the male(-) Yang Mind(-)(Body+) partaking or 'sharing' in the resurrection 'LightBody' in a quantum coupling with the Body(-)(Mind+) of the Logos of the Yang (Jesus) coupling to the Logos of the female(+) Yin (Mary Magdalene).

    The New Man so becomes assigned as a MIND(-)BODY(+)+BODY(-)MIND(+) polarity dualised yet monadised or unified Wave-Particle Complex.

    Fundamentally, the Old Man-Woman template assigned a male-mindedness to the MIND of the Cosmic Father-Creator, either male or female and a female-bodyness to the BODY as the cosmic Mother-Creation. Then the Old Man and the Old Woman, both carry an actual cosmic blueprint Mind(-)+Body(+) in outwards appearance, being tempered in their shadow natures as a MIND(-)Body(+)+BODY(+)Mind(-) archetypical configuration.

    Any Man so carries the 'correct' Mind(-)Body(+) template with a 'wrong' Body(+)Mind(-) blueprint and vice versa, any Woman carries the 'correct' Body(+)Mind(-), but coupled to a 'wrong' Mind(-)Body(+).

    Then Jesus of Nazareth's uniqueness and 'only begottenness' derives from his agency to reflect this Mind-Body polarity as a unique male bodyness (-) coupled to a female mindedness (+). To physicalise this 'uniqueness' any female template, say labeled as Mary Magdalene, can then partake in the 'New Order' in the mirroring of the maleness in the femaleness and manifesting in this way the Shadows of the Creation-Creator of the original undifferentiated and unpolarised FatherMother.

    This then enables any Old Man to ASCEND his 'wrong' Body(+) in exchange for the True Male ChristBody(-) and simultaneously DESCENDS the True Female ChristMind(+) in exchange for his old 'wrong' 'mindpart' of the female Body(+)Mind(-).

    Corollarily, the Old Woman DESCENDS her 'wrong' Mind(-) in exchange for the True Female ChristMind(+) and simultaneously ASCENDS the True Male ChristBody(-) in exchange for her old 'wrong' 'bodypart' of the male Mind(-)Body(+).

    Old Man: Mind(-)Body(+) is Reborn or 'EuchaChristened' as New Man: Mind(-)Body(+)

    Body(+)Mind(-) Body(-)Mind(+)



    Old Woman: Mind(-)Body(+) is Reborn or 'EuchaChristened' as New Woman: Mind(+)Body(-)

    Body(+)Mind(-) Body(+)Mind(-)



    For the warpzone then, these exchanges become subjective to if one CAN mirror the Logos or Not, say in mental attunements or resonance.

    If NOT then the Wavepart of the Bodymind becomes absorbed by the ones that can i.e. the Logos people, who are encoded as the 'sealed' ones, and able to 'sing a new song before the throne of God' as the Song of Moses and the Lamb.
    Then the Old humans running around as Mind(Bodies) and Body(Minds) harbour BodyMinds, which have now become disempowerd by their own ignorance to REFLECT themselves in the Logos data.

    This then means that of the 4 parts, one is 'Lost' literally to the 'Sealed Ones', NOT carrying the 'Mark of the Beast' in the Omega Mirror of the Future having absorbed the past in temporal terms.


    This is shown in the witnesses in Rev.11 turning the waters of the Universe especially Gaia, as the 'quarantined Coccoon for the Cosmic Metamorphosis' here into their own Blood.
    The witnesses for the Logos BECOME as One with the environments; absorbing the world holographically within their individualised and Logos-triggered Merkabahs.


    In the Gospel of Thomas, this is shown via saying #77:

    "77) Jesus said, "It is I who am the light which is above them all. It is I who am the All. From Me did the All come forth, and unto Me did the All extend. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find Me there."


    So considering the New World as a monadic or unified Dualistic New Creation; the WaveBody part of the upper witness will become part of this New World and projected from the Omega Mirror into the Starhuman future; but the Old World separated Body+Mind=Body+Wave part will not; becoming the third of the 'destruction' triggered by the blowing of the trumpets.

    This of course is the revisiting of the Noahic Flood symbols, which destroys all of the bodies of the Old World; except the inhabiants of the Ark as the Merkabah or Spaceship of the Deliverance and describes the 'Great City' dividing into three parts in Revelation.16.19.


    Revelation.16.17-19:

    17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

    18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.


    19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.


    The 'Great City' is the Cosmos or Universe as holographic template for a 'little City' such as in Revelation.11.13.


    Revelation.11.13:

    13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.


    Here the 'tenth part of the City' refers to the 'ten horns' of the Beast in both Daniel and Revelation as the first principle of the New Identity in monadic duality being formed from the Old Identity-Antiidentity precept as a reconfigured individualised merkabah or 'lightbody' (as described in the measurements of Noah's Ark and found elsewhere in this thread).

    To be continued!!!!

    Post last edited 2 Hours Ago

    Tonyblue


    I Am One In Many and I Am Many in One in Ee*=1

    Full thread and timelines here: http://www.thuban.spruz.com/forums/?page=post&id=0D45E32B-B08A-46C5-918C-D308094ABAA3&lastp=1


    Last edited by Raven on Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  orthodoxymoron Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:45 am

    Raven - what is your background (in general) regarding prophecy. Mine is Seventh-day Adventist. I don't go to church - but I still read some of their publications and books. I spent a lot of time listening to Dr. Robert H. Schuller - and I have attended Episcopal and Roman Catholic churches - on a very limited basis. I frankly got tired of the interpretive wars connected with prophecy. The fear, negativity, and even hatred generated seems to be highly counterproductive. I've frankly had it with most religions and philosophies. In another thread, you seemed to imply that I might be one of those who would be calling for the rocks to fall on me - to hide me from the face of him that sitteth upon the throne - and from the wrath of the Lamb - because my internet posting had indeed been duly noted. I live a very, very boring and dull life. I do very little of anything. I have been too depressed and disillusioned to do much of anything. I have been attempting to find my way in connection with my internet activities - but this seems to have placed me on God's Fecal List, the Red (dead) List, and who knows how many other lists. My seeking has been sincere - and frankly irreverent - because history is a disaster - and I blame the gods and goddesses for a lot of the madness. If this includes him that sitteth upon the thone, and the Lamb - so be it. I simply wish for this solar system to be run properly. Does this doom me to eternal extermination by a god of love? Why is everything so $crewed-up? Why does so little make sense? Why is everyone so out of touch and irresponsible. Which book in the Bible discusses RESPONSIBILITY? Have any gods, goddesses, or sacred texts really taught the human race RESPONSIBILITY? It sounds as though there is going to be some sort of a god-off and extermination in the near future. What the hell is going on? I don't play numbers games anymore. I concentrate on principles, concepts, and the red-letter Teachings of Jesus.

    Google 'Dr. Desmond Ford' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Ford for some interesting information regarding Daniel and the Revelation (and info on his several books). He studied under F.F. Bruce at Manchester University in England - receiving a doctorate in New Testament. He also received a doctorate in rhetoric - specifically rhetoric in the writings of Paul. I have huge theological differences with Dr. Ford - but he was/is quite the intellectual. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy37dpBXjEs I don't just pick on Lucifer and the Roman Catholics!!! I'm an equal-opportunity paradigm-basher!! Here is a link to the text of a very controversial lecture by Dr. Ford in 1979 regarding Daniel 8 and Hebrews 9. http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/library/1979forum/part1.cfm
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    Post  Raven Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:01 am

    Oxy what I know of prophecy derives directly from what the Logos has shown me in my own journey to find the truth, as well as through my own and others rememberances. I too am a seeker just like you and so subject to my own ability to see and reflect my path and the truths I have discovered. In other words I am no different from you or anyone else seeking truth. Tony is the person who wrote this post which I am sharing here with all of you.

    It did not transfer properly which is why I gave a link for everyone at the bottom to further study what I have posted here. Now, if your the seeker you say you are, maybe you will find that link helpful in your understanding of things and quite possibly some of the other threads located on that same site. Its entirely up to you and anyone else 'curious' to know more. I am just delivering a message.

    I did NOT imply that you were one of those who would be hiding under the rocks. YOU yourself said that you wanted to find a nice silo to hide in. I was merely pointing out the fact that it is stated in the bible that many will want to hide beneath rocks, in the earth ect. I was trying to show you that you are not alone in your fear and it is written in the Bible that many will feel as such. But I will say this, what you fear is only yourself.

    About RESPONSIBILITY: why do you blame the gods and goddesses for your troubles? Being responsible means owning up to the fact that ALL of human kind's suffering is directly related to humans themselves PERIOD.

    Like the Elite Insider said on my other thread, which doubtfully you read, the Divine gives us the tools, we are the ones responsible for how we use them, either constructively or destructively. You are the perpetrator in the creation of your own heaven and your own hell, thinking otherwise is NOT called responsibility, its called being BLIND.
    The ignorance of human kind is truthfully what has blinded humans from accepting responsibility. And all ignorance means really, is something which we have not revealed to ourselves and otherwise 'hidden' from ourselves.

    The bible is full of all kinds of references to being responsible, but one has to be astute enough to recognize it. If we are too busy spouting out endless lines of our own BS and cannot be still enough to ponder a few words of wisdom, then we are likely to miss the point entirely. And like Laurel and Hardy, we may find ourselves stuck with WHO is on 1st?????
    Love, Raven


    Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
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    Post  orthodoxymoron Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:01 am

    Who is really working through Tony? Could it be Lucifer, Kali, Mary, the Queen of Heaven - or a representative of them? That abraxasinas Q&A thread was so strange - but whoever was answering the questions was a genius in a rather twisted and almost deranged manner. I don't deny that human beings are very capable of $crewing things up all by themselves - but the sacred texts are a mess - and the churches are even worse. We really are stupid sheeple - but the shepherds have been, and are, wolves in sheep's clothing.
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    Post  Raven Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:30 am

    Hmmm lets see, who is this Lucifer???

    Wiki says:
    Lucifer is a Latin word (from the words lucem ferre), literally meaning "light-bearer", which in that language is used as a name for the dawn appearance of the planet Venus, heralding daylight. Use of the word in this sense is uncommon in English, in which " "Day Star" or "Morning Star" are more common expressions.

    continued here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

    The bible says:


    Revelation.2.28;22.16:

    26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

    27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

    28And I will give him the morning star.

    29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


    15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

    16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    It does boggle the mind doesn't it?
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    Post  orthodoxymoron Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:02 am

    Did Lucifer write the Bible - or major portions of the Bible and the Quran - directly or indirectly? I suspect both a good, and an evil side to Lucifer. See the following thread (including links) for my rambling speculations and questions. A lot of this is merely intuitive - and I am not shouting this from the mountain tops of Tibet. http://www.themistsofavalon.net/universal-lounge-f8/amen-ra-et-al-t1116.htm
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    Post  Jonah Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:43 am

    orthodoxymoron wrote:Did Lucifer write the Bible - or major portions of the Bible and the Quran - directly or indirectly? I suspect both a good, and an evil side to Lucifer. See the following thread (including links) for my rambling speculations and questions. A lot of this is merely intuitive - and I am not shouting this from the mountain tops of Tibet. http://www.themistsofavalon.net/universal-lounge-f8/amen-ra-et-al-t1116.htm

    To me ortho.... Lucifer is a being that cannot enter our realm physically.... so it would be impossible for him to
    1. have a body..(in this age)
    and 2. write the bible....

    you would do good to read the links which Raven has provided for you... they do explain a bit about this subject.... Particulary the one from "insider13"
    The intuitive part comes from fear.... Fear of the truth which is that humans do most of the evil... for some it is a duty.... but that is because... and hear comes the f'ed up part.... We are currently residing in a prison for your mind..... the only way to return from which you came... is to release your mind... "the way" was paved by the christ... which is not the one from the bible.... and can only be found when you personally start looking for it.... This means manifesting your universal mind... which belongs to the creator.... its will shall link with yours ... so that the work done on this "plane" will prove your will to be one with everthing on the outside... hope that helps.... no evil is more groteus than what is done by humans in this hell...



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    Post  Guest Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:19 am

    orthodoxymoron wrote:Did Lucifer write the Bible - or major portions of the Bible and the Quran - directly or indirectly? I suspect both a good, and an evil side to Lucifer. See the following thread (including links) for my rambling speculations and questions. A lot of this is merely intuitive - and I am not shouting this from the mountain tops of Tibet. http://www.themistsofavalon.net/universal-lounge-f8/amen-ra-et-al-t1116.htm

    The Bible was compiled by the Nicaea council in the 3rd Century, way after the events. There is no original bible held in the Vatican Archives so there is no way of verifying whether what it contains has historical reality or not. It is claimed that was "inspired" by God but that is impossible to verify so the questions that need resolution will be like

    1) Why the Nicaea council got reunited
    2) What was its aim
    3) Who financed it ( follow the money always )
    4) Why so many were killed to preserve its "sanctity" and why that knew other versions of the story where silenced
    5) Why is the Roman empire was so organized, there are no records of such writings or even the crucifixion. One will think that the death of a famous "terrorist" will have been recorded but it wasn't
    and so on




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    Post  orthodoxymoron Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:08 am

    You make very good points. I watched this excellent video previously - but I will watch it again. I truly wish to be a good and spiritual person - but I do not wish to continue to sweep the problems under the rug. When I think of the Roman Catholic Church - I think of Sirius/Tibet/Babylon/Egypt/Greece/Rome - both ancient and modern - really without a break. Jesus (especially in his teachings) seems to be a rebel insider to this Roman Empire. Jesus was turned into a Crucifix - and His Teachings have been buried under a Mass of Ceremony and Tradition. Even now - I have a difficult time facing the troubling realities of world history and church history. I can only take so much.
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    Post  Guest Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:29 am

    orthodoxymoron wrote:You make very good points. I watched this excellent video previously - but I will watch it again. I truly wish to be a good and spiritual person - but I do not wish to continue to sweep the problems under the rug. When I think of the Roman Catholic Church - I think of Sirius/Tibet/Babylon/Egypt/Greece/Rome - both ancient and modern - really without a break. Jesus (especially in his teachings) seems to be a rebel insider to this Roman Empire. Jesus was turned into a Crucifix - and His Teachings have been buried under a Mass of Ceremony and Tradition. Even now - I have a difficult time facing the troubling realities of world history and church history. I can only take so much.

    I understand what you say, it is really tough. What has assisted me is to come into the knowledge that God Source gave us free will. It means that while it may prefer that we follow the path of joy some of his creation may choose to explore the path of sorrow or diminishing return and that is ok. It brings great peace to know that no matter how bad it gets out there we are only responsible for our own actions and that the biggest service we can bring to humanity is healing ourselves

    If we endeavour to heal ourselves and become whole, at one with our own spirit, we can be of great service to our fellow-man just by being

    Inner harmony increases our frequency and therefore assist the planet too by balancing the discordant energies that we live in. It creates a better average and a better probability

    It is all perfect scalar wave/frequency mathematics which is why we are being pushed into fear scenarios by those that have chosen the path of sorrow, to tip the balance towards their desired probability. We have the ability to choose better and that is our own personal responsibility

    When I find it difficult to deal with a situation I try to suspend judgement and wait until all the pieces of the puzzle come into place. There is no point in feeling victimized because what is done is done. We just have to move on in forgiveness and choose again

    I love you
    Raven
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    Post  Raven Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:52 pm

    Andromeda wrote:

    I understand what you say, it is really tough. What has assisted me is to come into the knowledge that God Source gave us free will. It means that while it may prefer that we follow the path of joy some of his creation may choose to explore the path of sorrow or diminishing return and that is ok. It brings great peace to know that no matter how bad it gets out there we are only responsible for our own actions and that the biggest service we can bring to humanity is healing ourselves

    If we endeavour to heal ourselves and become whole, at one with our own spirit, we can be of great service to our fellow-man just by being

    Inner harmony increases our frequency and therefore assist the planet too by balancing the discordant energies that we live in. It creates a better average and a better probability

    It is all perfect scalar wave/frequency mathematics which is why we are being pushed into fear scenarios by those that have chosen the path of sorrow, to tip the balance towards their desired probability. We have the ability to choose better and that is our own personal responsibility

    When I find it difficult to deal with a situation I try to suspend judgement and wait until all the pieces of the puzzle come into place. There is no point in feeling victimized because what is done is done. We just have to move on in forgiveness and choose again

    I love you

    Very wise words Andromeda. These words you have written are hinting at the presence of the true Christ and your gnosis is very profound. Thank you for sharing your personal pearls here :)
    Loving you as myself, Raven
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    Post  orthodoxymoron Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:09 pm

    Here is a lecture which examines the Canonization Process. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1l6d10Fw1Q Perhaps we need to focus upon the most important and useful words - and place them in the context of a constitution which protects and promotes these words. My first step in this direction is to place the word Responsibility in the context of the U.S. Constitution - in the context of the United Nations (replacing the U.N. Charter) - and then applying it to the entire Solar System. Obviously, this is a pipe-dream, and it is simply a conceptual test, at this point. Complex symbols and eschatology in obscure texts - interpreted by fevered minds - produces guilt, fear, hatred, confusion, self-fulfilling prophecy, triumphalism, etc, etc. We don't really know the source or the intent - and they have driven many to despair, false-security, and insanity. I don't play these games anymore.


    Last edited by orthodoxymoron on Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Raven Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:11 pm

    Jonah wrote:

    To me ortho.... Lucifer is a being that cannot enter our realm physically.... so it would be impossible for him to
    1. have a body..(in this age)
    and 2. write the bible....

    you would do good to read the links which Raven has provided for you... they do explain a bit about this subject.... Particulary the one from "insider13"
    The intuitive part comes from fear.... Fear of the truth which is that humans do most of the evil... for some it is a duty.... but that is because... and hear comes the f'ed up part.... We are currently residing in a prison for your mind..... the only way to return from which you came... is to release your mind... "the way" was paved by the christ... which is not the one from the bible.... and can only be found when you personally start looking for it.... This means manifesting your universal mind... which belongs to the creator.... its will shall link with yours ... so that the work done on this "plane" will prove your will to be one with everthing on the outside... hope that helps.... no evil is more groteus than what is done by humans in this hell...




    Indeed Jonah and thank you, it seems you too have been touched by the Truth and I am very glad you have shared your insight with us as well. All of this is very deep stuff indeed. The challenge is to bring the Divine within you out to be mutually shared by all. Understanding who the real Christ is is the key to really understanding your highest self, not getting caught up in the semantics nor who wrote what and when, or the who is who aka Lucifer/Jesus, good/evil ect.

    The bigger picture is seen from the higher perspective, always. And from this perspective you can easily recognize the ones who SEE and the ones who are still lost in the wilderness of their own making. Namaste brotherfather/sistermother in the spirit of the One in the Many and the Many in the One.
    InLake'ch, Raven
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    Post  orthodoxymoron Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:25 pm

    It takes courage to be genuinely intuitive - rather than merely reflecting the thoughts of others. Who wrote what and why is extremely important - because so many (including Satanists) base everything on various sacred texts. We really do need to know who the good and bad guys and gals are - so that we can support the good and oppose the bad. Rule by secrecy, deception, confusion, and violence is on it's way out. Organized Openness and a Religion of Responsibility applied to Solar System Governance - will set us free.
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    Post  Jonah Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:30 am

    orthodoxymoron wrote:It takes courage to be genuinely intuitive - rather than merely reflecting the thoughts of others. Who wrote what and why is extremely important - because so many (including Satanists) base everything on various sacred texts. We really do need to know who the good and bad guys and gals are - so that we can support the good and oppose the bad. Rule by secrecy, deception, confusion, and violence is on it's way out. Organized Openness and a Religion of Responsibility applied to Solar System Governance - will set us free.

    Ortho..
    if you lived on a desolate island.... with noone around... no internet... no books..... no tv....

    Would you still feel the need to support the good and oppose the bad... ?

    In such a situation it would become clear... there is no opposition.... only yourself....

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    Post  orthodoxymoron Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:09 am

    Jonah wrote:
    orthodoxymoron wrote:It takes courage to be genuinely intuitive - rather than merely reflecting the thoughts of others. Who wrote what and why is extremely important - because so many (including Satanists) base everything on various sacred texts. We really do need to know who the good and bad guys and gals are - so that we can support the good and oppose the bad. Rule by secrecy, deception, confusion, and violence is on it's way out. Organized Openness and a Religion of Responsibility applied to Solar System Governance - will set us free.

    Ortho..
    if you lived on a desolate island.... with noone around... no internet... no books..... no tv....

    Would you still feel the need to support the good and oppose the bad... ?

    In such a situation it would become clear... there is no opposition.... only yourself....


    I'm sort of that way now - and the battle rages 24/7. Isolated reflection is probably one of the best ways to solve the world's problems. It makes one face themselves - and think. The horror.

    Here is another perspective on how the future unfolds. Behold a Pale Horse. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2414574348304077734#docid=-7367255331569182231


    Last edited by orthodoxymoron on Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:13 am; edited 1 time in total
    Raven
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    Post  Raven Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:36 pm

    orthodoxymoron wrote:

    I'm sort of that way now - and the battle rages 24/7. Isolated reflection is probably one of the best ways to solve the world's problems. It makes one face themselves - and think. The horror.

    Here is another perspective on how the future unfolds. Behold a Pale Horse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3ncFob_dF0&feature=related

    Have you actually stopped to do this yourself Oxy? Or are you still busy chasing the answers as to WHO is on 1st?? I do hope that one day you will take the time to look in the mirror and reflect a little and quite possibly find the answers to your questions.

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    Post  orthodoxymoron Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:03 am

    I have indeed - and will continue to do so. Knowing oneself - and knowing who is on first are rather important. The man and/or woman behind the curtain should reveal themselves - and provide an explanation which is completely honest - and which involves no mind games or double talk whatsoever.
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    Post  Raven Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:02 am

    orthodoxymoron wrote:I have indeed - and will continue to do so. Knowing oneself - and knowing who is on first are rather important. The man and/or woman behind the curtain should reveal themselves - and provide an explanation which is completely honest - and which involves no mind games or double talk whatsoever.

    Oxy, Yoda is not hiding the answers. But the listener is for some reason not allowing himself to hear. No double talk, except the listener tripping over his own lack of ears and in this case they are HUGE, this fact doesn't seem to help him LOL.

    Matthew 13:15
    For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    Matthew 13:43
    Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
    orthodoxymoron
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    Post  orthodoxymoron Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:36 am

    Raven wrote:
    orthodoxymoron wrote:I have indeed - and will continue to do so. Knowing oneself - and knowing who is on first are rather important. The man and/or woman behind the curtain should reveal themselves - and provide an explanation which is completely honest - and which involves no mind games or double talk whatsoever.

    Oxy, Yoda is not hiding the answers. But the listener is for some reason not allowing himself to hear. No double talk, except the listener tripping over his own lack of ears and in this case they are HUGE, this fact doesn't seem to help him LOL.

    Matthew 13:15
    For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    Matthew 13:43
    Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    I wonder where one might end up if they read the Four Gospels, the Federalist Papers, and the Anti-Federalist Papers - over and over again - while listening to Latin Masses and Classical Sacred Music? I'm working toward this - but I'm not quite there. Might this open one's eyes and ears? Might they become an orthodoxymoron? Let's see - if I can get 100 monkeys to do this....
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    Post  orthodoxymoron Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:59 pm

    The following is from a book which I have quoted from extensively on other threads. I don't endorse a lot of it - yet it is quite profound, in many ways - and is relevant to this thread. I present to you 'The Great Controversy' by Ellen White (pgs. 479-491). Then, in the following two posts - I present a theological rebuttal to this material - by Dr. Desmond Ford. Finally, I offer some random thoughts of my own, which are somewhat related. This is tough going - but if you endure to the end - you might be amazed by this tug of war. I'll bet you never experienced anything like this in Sunday School!!

    "I beheld," says the prophet Daniel, "till thrones were placed, and One that was Ancient of Days did sit: His raiment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like pure wool; His throne was fiery flames, and the wheels thereof burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him: thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened." Daniel 7:9, 10, R.V.

    Thus was presented to the prophet's vision the great and solemn day when the characters and the lives of men should pass in review before the Judge of all the earth, and to every man should be rendered "according to his works." The Ancient of Days is God the Father. Says the psalmist: "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever Thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God." Psalm 90:2. It is He, the source of all being, and the fountain of all law, that is to preside in the judgment. And holy angels as ministers and witnesses, in number "ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands," attend this great tribunal.

    "And, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away." Daniel 7:13, 14. The coming of Christ here described is not His second coming to the earth. He comes to the Ancient of Days in heaven to receive dominion and glory and a kingdom, which will be given Him at the close of His work as a mediator. It is this coming, and not His second advent to the earth, that was foretold in prophecy to take place at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844. Attended by heavenly angels, our great High Priest enters the holy of holies and there appears in the presence of God to engage in the last acts of His ministration in behalf of man--to perform the work of investigative judgment and to make an atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits.

    In the typical service only those who had come before God with confession and repentance, and whose sins, through the blood of the sin offering, were transferred to the sanctuary, had a part in the service of the Day of Atonement. So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period. "Judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel?" 1 Peter 4:17.

    The books of record in heaven, in which the names and the deeds of men are registered, are to determine the decisions of the judgment. Says the prophet Daniel: "The judgment was set, and the books were opened." The revelator, describing the same scene, adds: "Another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20:12.

    The book of life contains the names of all who have ever entered the service of God. Jesus bade His disciples: "Rejoice, because your names are written in heaven." Luke 10:20. Paul speaks of his faithful fellow workers, "whose names are in the book of life." Philippians 4:3. Daniel, looking down to "a time of trouble, such as never was," declares that God's people shall be delivered, "everyone that shall be found written in the book." And the revelator says that those only shall enter the city of God whose names "are written in the Lamb's book of life." Daniel 12:1; Revelation 21:27.

    "A book of remembrance" is written before God, in which are recorded the good deeds of "them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon His name." Malachi 3:16. Their words of faith, their acts of love, are registered in heaven. Nehemiah refers to this when he says: "Remember me, O my God, . . . and wipe not out my good deeds that I have done for the house of my God." Nehemiah 13:14. In the book of God's remembrance every deed of righteousness is immortalized. There every temptation resisted, every evil overcome, every word of tender pity expressed, is faithfully chronicled. And every act of sacrifice, every suffering and sorrow endured for Christ's sake, is recorded. Says the psalmist: "Thou tellest my wanderings: put Thou my tears into Thy bottle: are they not in Thy book?" Psalm 56:8.

    There is a record also of the sins of men. "For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Says the Saviour: "By thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Ecclesiastes 12:14; Matthew 12:36, 37. The secret purposes and motives appear in the unerring register; for God "will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts." 1 Corinthians 4:5. "Behold, it is written before Me, . . . your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the Lord." Isaiah 65:6, 7.

    Every man's work passes in review before God and is registered for faithfulness or unfaithfulness. Opposite each name in the books of heaven is entered with terrible exactness every wrong word, every selfish act, every unfulfilled duty, and every secret sin, with every artful dissembling. Heaven-sent warnings or reproofs neglected, wasted moments, unimproved opportunities, the influence exerted for good or for evil, with its far-reaching results, all are chronicled by the recording angel.

    The law of God is the standard by which the characters and the lives of men will be tested in the judgment. Says the wise man: "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment." Ecclesiastes 12:13, 14. The apostle James admonishes his brethren: "So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty." James 2:12

    Those who in the judgment are "accounted worthy" will have a part in the resurrection of the just. Jesus said: "They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, . . . are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection." Luke 20:35, 36. And again He declares that "they that have done good" shall come forth "unto the resurrection of life." John 5:29. The righteous dead will not be raised until after the judgment at which they are accounted worthy of "the resurrection of life." Hence they will not be present in person at the tribunal when their records are examined and their cases decided.

    Jesus will appear as their advocate, to plead in their behalf before God. "If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1. "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us." "Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them." Hebrews 9:24; 7:25.

    As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance. The Lord declared to Moses: "Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book." Exodus 32:33. And says the prophet Ezekiel: "When the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, . . . all his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned." Ezekiel 18:24.

    All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life. The Lord declares, by the prophet Isaiah: "I, even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." Isaiah 43:25. Said Jesus: "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels." "Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven." Revelation 3:5; Matthew 10:32, 33.

    The deepest interest manifested among men in the decisions of earthly tribunals but faintly represents the interest evinced in the heavenly courts when the names entered in the book of life come up in review before the Judge of all the earth. The divine Intercessor presents the plea that all who have overcome through faith in His blood be forgiven their transgressions, that they be restored to their Eden home, and crowned as joint heirs with Himself to "the first dominion." Micah 4:8. Satan in his efforts to deceive and tempt our race had thought to frustrate the divine plan in man's creation; but Christ now asks that this plan be carried into effect as if man had never fallen. He asks for His people not only pardon and justification, full and complete, but a share in His glory and a seat upon His throne.

    While Jesus is pleading for the subjects of His grace, Satan accuses them before God as transgressors. The great deceiver has sought to lead them into skepticism, to cause them to lose confidence in God, to separate themselves from His love, and to break His law. Now he points to the record of their lives, to the defects of character, the unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer, to all the sins that he has tempted them to commit, and because of these he claims them as his subjects.

    Jesus does not excuse their sins, but shows their penitence and faith, and, claiming for them forgiveness, He lifts His wounded hands before the Father and the holy angels, saying: I know them by name. I have graven them on the palms of My hands. "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise." Psalm 51:17. And to the accuser of His people He declares: "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?" Zechariah 3:2. Christ will clothe His faithful ones with His own righteousness, that He may present them to His Father "a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Ephesians 5:27. Their names stand enrolled in the book of life, and concerning them it is written: "They shall walk with Me in white: for they are worthy." Revelation 3:4.

    Thus will be realized the complete fulfillment of the new-covenant promise: "I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." "In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found." Jeremiah 31:34; 50:20. "In that day shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even everyone that is written among the living in Jerusalem." Isaiah 4:2, 3.

    The work of the investigative judgment and the blotting out of sins is to be accomplished before the second advent of the Lord. Since the dead are to be judged out of the things written in the books, it is impossible that the sins of men should be blotted out until after the judgment at which their cases are to be investigated. But the apostle Peter distinctly states that the sins of believers will be blotted out "when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and He shall send Jesus Christ." Acts 3:19, 20. When the investigative judgment closes, Christ will come, and His reward will be with Him to give to every man as his work shall be.

    In the typical service the high priest, having made the atonement for Israel, came forth and blessed the congregation. So Christ, at the close of His work as mediator, will appear, "without sin unto salvation" (Hebrews 9:28), to bless His waiting people with eternal life. As the priest, in removing the sins from the sanctuary, confessed them upon the head of the scapegoat, so Christ will place all these sins upon Satan, the originator and instigator of sin. The scapegoat, bearing the sins of Israel, was sent away "unto a land not inhabited" (Leviticus 16:22); so Satan, bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit, will be for a thousand years confined to the earth, which will then be desolate, without inhabitant, and he will at last suffer the full penalty of sin in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked. Thus the great plan of redemption will reach its accomplishment in the final eradication of sin and the deliverance of all who have been willing to renounce evil.

    At the time appointed for the judgment--the close of the 2300 days, in 1844--began the work of investigation and blotting out of sins. All who have ever taken upon themselves the name of Christ must pass its searching scrutiny. Both the living and the dead are to be judged "out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

    Sins that have not been repented of and forsaken will not be pardoned and blotted out of the books of record, but will stand to witness against the sinner in the day of God. He may have committed his evil deeds in the light of day or in the darkness of night; but they were open and manifest before Him with whom we have to do. Angels of God witnessed each sin and registered it in the unerring records. Sin may be concealed, denied, covered up from father, mother, wife, children, and associates; no one but the guilty actors may cherish the least suspicion of the wrong; but it is laid bare before the intelligences of heaven. The darkness of the darkest night, the secrecy of all deceptive arts, is not sufficient to veil one thought from the knowledge of the Eternal. God has an exact record of every unjust account and every unfair dealing. He is not deceived by appearances of piety. He makes no mistakes in His estimation of character. Men may be deceived by those who are corrupt in heart, but God pierces all disguises and reads the inner life.

    How solemn is the thought! Day after day, passing into eternity, bears its burden of records for the books of heaven. Words once spoken, deeds once done, can never be recalled. Angels have registered both the good and the evil. The mightiest conqueror upon the earth cannot call back the record of even a single day. Our acts, our words, even our most secret motives, all have their weight in deciding our destiny for weal or woe. Though they may be forgotten by us, they will bear their testimony to justify or condemn.

    As the features of the countenance are reproduced with unerring accuracy on the polished plate of the artist, so the character is faithfully delineated in the books above. Yet how little solicitude is felt concerning that record which is to meet the gaze of heavenly beings. Could the veil which separates the visible from the invisible world be swept back, and the children of men behold an angel recording every word and deed, which they must meet again in the judgment, how many words that are daily uttered would remain unspoken, how many deeds would remain undone.

    In the judgment the use made of every talent will be scrutinized. How have we employed the capital lent us of Heaven? Will the Lord at His coming receive His own with usury? Have we improved the powers entrusted us, in hand and heart and brain, to the glory of God and the blessing of the world? How have we used our time, our pen, our voice, our money, our influence? What have we done for Christ, in the person of the poor, the afflicted, the orphan, or the widow? God has made us the depositaries of His holy word; what have we done with the light and truth given us to make men wise unto salvation? No value is attached to a mere profession of faith in Christ; only the love which is shown by works is counted genuine. Yet it is love alone which in the sight of Heaven makes any act of value. Whatever is done from love, however small it may appear in the estimation of men, is accepted and rewarded of God.

    The hidden selfishness of men stands revealed in the books of heaven. There is the record of unfulfilled duties to their fellow men, of forgetfulness of the Saviour's claims. There they will see how often were given to Satan the time, thought, and strength that belonged to Christ. Sad is the record which angels bear to heaven. Intelligent beings, professed followers of Christ, are absorbed in the acquirement of worldly possessions or the enjoyment of earthly pleasures. Money, time, and strength are sacrificed for display and self-indulgence; but few are the moments devoted to prayer, to the searching of the Scriptures, to humiliation of soul and confession of sin.

    Satan invents unnumbered schemes to occupy our minds, that they may not dwell upon the very work with which we ought to be best acquainted. The archdeceiver hates the great truths that bring to view an atoning sacrifice and an all-powerful mediator. He knows that with him everything depends on his diverting minds from Jesus and His truth.

    Those who would share the benefits of the Saviour's mediation should permit nothing to interfere with their duty to perfect holiness in the fear of God. The precious hours, instead of being given to pleasure, to display, or to gain seeking, should be devoted to an earnest, prayerful study of the word of truth. The subject of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment should be clearly understood by the people of God. All need a knowledge for themselves of the position and work of their great High Priest. Otherwise it will be impossible for them to exercise the faith which is essential at this time or to occupy the position which God designs them to fill. Every individual has a soul to save or to lose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God. Each must meet the great Judge face to face. How important, then, that every mind contemplate often the solemn scene when the judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, when, with Daniel, every individual must stand in his lot, at the end of the days.

    All who have received the light upon these subjects are to bear testimony of the great truths which God has committed to them. The sanctuary in heaven is the very center of Christ's work in behalf of men. It concerns every soul living upon the earth. It opens to view the plan of redemption, bringing us down to the very close of time and revealing the triumphant issue of the contest between righteousness and sin. It is of the utmost importance that all should thoroughly investigate these subjects and be able to give an answer to everyone that asketh them a reason of the hope that is in them.

    The intercession of Christ in man's behalf in the sanctuary above is as essential to the plan of salvation as was His death upon the cross. By His death He began that work which after His resurrection He ascended to complete in heaven. We must by faith enter within the veil, "whither the forerunner is for us entered." Hebrews 6:20. There the light from the cross of Calvary is reflected. There we may gain a clearer insight into the mysteries of redemption. The salvation of man is accomplished at an infinite expense to heaven; the sacrifice made is equal to the broadest demands of the broken law of God. Jesus has opened the way to the Father's throne, and through His mediation the sincere desire of all who come to Him in faith may be presented before God.

    "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." Proverbs 28:13. If those who hide and excuse their faults could see how Satan exults over them, how he taunts Christ and holy angels with their course, they would make haste to confess their sins and to put them away. Through defects in the character, Satan works to gain control of the whole mind, and he knows that if these defects are cherished, he will succeed. Therefore he is constantly seeking to deceive the followers of Christ with his fatal sophistry that it is impossible for them to overcome. But Jesus pleads in their behalf His wounded hands, His bruised body; and He declares to all who would follow Him: "My grace is sufficient for thee." 2 Corinthians 12:9. "Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light." Matthew 11:29, 30. Let none, then, regard their defects as incurable. God will give faith and grace to overcome them.

    We are now living in the great day of atonement. In the typical service, while the high priest was making the atonement for Israel, all were required to afflict their souls by repentance of sin and humiliation before the Lord, lest they be cut off from among the people. In like manner, all who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. There must be deep, faithful searching of heart. The light, frivolous spirit indulged by so many professed Christians must be put away. There is earnest warfare before all who would subdue the evil tendencies that strive for the mastery. The work of preparation is an individual work. We are not saved in groups. The purity and devotion of one will not offset the want of these qualities in another. Though all nations are to pass in judgment before God, yet He will examine the case of each individual with as close and searching scrutiny as if there were not another being upon the earth. Everyone must be tested and found without spot or wrinkle or any such thing.

    Solemn are the scenes connected with the closing work of the atonement. Momentous are the interests involved therein. The judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. For many years this work has been in progress. Soon--none know how soon--it will pass to the cases of the living. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review. At this time above all others it behooves every soul to heed the Saviour's admonition: "Watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is." Mark 13:33. "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." Revelation 3:3.

    When the work of the investigative judgment closes, the destiny of all will have been decided for life or death. Probation is ended a short time before the appearing of the Lord in the clouds of heaven. Christ in the Revelation, looking forward to that time, declares: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:11, 12.

    The righteous and the wicked will still be living upon the earth in their mortal state--men will be planting and building, eating and drinking, all unconscious that the final, irrevocable decision has been pronounced in the sanctuary above. Before the Flood, after Noah entered the ark, God shut him in and shut the ungodly out; but for seven days the people, knowing not that their doom was fixed, continued their careless, pleasure-loving life and mocked the warnings of impending judgment. "So," says the Saviour, "shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Matthew 24:39. Silently, unnoticed as the midnight thief, will come the decisive hour which marks the fixing of every man's destiny, the final withdrawal of mercy's offer to guilty men.

    "Watch ye therefore: . . . lest coming suddenly He find you sleeping." Mark 13:35, 36. Perilous is the condition of those who, growing weary of their watch, turn to the attractions of the world. While the man of business is absorbed in the pursuit of gain, while the pleasure lover is seeking indulgence, while the daughter of fashion is arranging her adornments--it may be in that hour the Judge of all the earth will pronounce the sentence: "Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting." Daniel 5:27.


    Last edited by orthodoxymoron on Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:05 pm; edited 3 times in total
    orthodoxymoron
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    Post  orthodoxymoron Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:07 pm

    The following is a lecture by Dr. Desmond Ford - which takes issue with the material presented in the previous post. I attend this lecture - and it changed my life - in both good ways and bad ways. I eventually rejected most of the above - and accepted the Teachings of Jesus as my doctrinal statement. This probably won't interest anyone - but I just wanted it on the record. This dispute ended up in the national press - including in 'Newsweek' and on television. Dr. Desmond Ford http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Ford provides some interesting information regarding Daniel and the Revelation in several books. He studied under F.F. Bruce at Manchester University in England - receiving a doctorate in New Testament. He also received a doctorate in rhetoric - specifically rhetoric in the writings of Paul. I have huge theological differences with Dr. Ford - but he was/is quite the intellectual. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy37dpBXjEs I don't just pick on Lucifer and the Roman Catholics!!! I'm an equal-opportunity paradigm-basher!! Here is a link to the text of a very controversial lecture by Dr. Ford in 1979 regarding Daniel 8 and Hebrews 9. http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/library/1979forum/part1.cfm

    This meeting actually began about 35 years ago in Sydney, Australia. As an Anglican - or I think you call them Episcopalians over here - in the city of Sydney, in my home in a suburb there, I was reading Hebrews, chapter 9. At that time, I was listening to the Advent Radio Church each Sunday, and I had begun to collect the books of Ellen G. White from second-hand bookshops around Sydney. And as I was reading Hebrews 9 that day, I said, That's strange. This is different than what the Adventists are saying. There is a problem here. The problem wasn't solved by the time I was baptized. And what I'm going to try to give you in the next hour is 35 years of thinking on the problem. And if it seems a bit concentrated, we would remind you that there will be tapes of it in the cassette library, and some of you may want to take it section-by-section.

    You see, I am not a Seventh-day Adventist by birth, but by conviction. And the moment that ceases to be so, I will hand in my credentials as an Adventist minister. I rejoiced to find in the Spirit of Prophecy when I became an Adventist a very open attitude to investigation and biblical research. A false prophet would never have made it so. But I find Ellen White saying that we can never honor God by erroneous opinions, that error is never harmless and that it never sanctifies, and that every pillar of our faith should be critically examined by us before it is examined by the world's greatest minds.

    I found in the book Counsels to Writers and Editors statements like this, page 35: "There's no excuse for anyone taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The facts of certain doctrines have been held as truth for years is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. If the pillars of our faith will not stand investigation, it's time we knew it." That's Ellen White.

    On page 37 of the same book, Counsels to Writers and Editors: "We have many lessons to learn and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think they'll never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion will be disappointed."

    Page 38: "God sees that our leading men have need of greater light."

    Page 39: "The fact that there's no controversy or agitation among us as a people should not be regarded as conclusive evidence that God's people are holding fast to sound doctrines. Where no new questions are started by investigation of the Scriptures, where no difference of opinion arises, there will be many now who, as in ancient times, will worship they know not what."

    All good, healthy quotations from one who had nothing to fear. I can remember a few years after becoming a Sabbath-keeper walking the streets of a great city, out of work over the Sabbath. It didn't seem to me meritorious or strange, it seemed the only right thing to do. If the seventh day was the Sabbath and that was the truth, it was the only right thing to do, and I was too much a coward to resist it. And I preferred to be out of work and walking the streets.

    And when I became an evangelist about six years later, it seemed the right thing to do to urge the keeping of the Sabbath upon people, even though it might involve trouble at home, the loss of a job, loss of finance, change of status in the community, and so on.

    If Christ is the truth, there is nothing to be lost by following the truth wherever it leads, however contrary to tradition. Many here in this auditorium only became Adventists by throwing over tradition. That must remain our attitude. Christ is the truth, and we are to follow him wherever it leads.

    Now it was in the twentieth century, particularly, that some of the brightest lights in the Adventist church began to go out over the issue of the sanctuary. Men like Albion Ballenger, a man of undoubted integrity and spirituality, a man who wrote such books as The Proclamation of Liberty and Powerful Witnessing, a book even recently reprinted. And about 1905 Albion Ballenger was put out of the work because of his views on Hebrews 9.

    Not many years later, one of the greatest Bible teachers we've ever had in the denomination, W. W. Fletcher, one of our leading administrators in India, then came to the Australasian Division and was offered work in an administrative capacity there, and then became Bible teacher at Avondale College. Everyone that knew that man thought of him as a man of God, another man of undoubted integrity. I met him myself for thirty seconds. He seemed to be the saddest man on earth, and I knew nothing about his background.

    In the 1950s, the Review and Herald sent to the Australasian Division the new commentary on Hebrews, the SDA Commentary on Hebrews. And the secretary of the Division, when he read what it said on Hebrews 9 and 10, said, "They have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they've laid him!" And the Australasian Division sent the manuscript back, with the request that it be changed, and it was.

    A little after that I went to America, and on one occasion had the privilege of chatting with F. D. Nichol. He said, "Brother Ford, our greatest need is a definitive work on the sanctuary." I said to him, "We have a lot of problems in Australia over the sanctuary. We've had men leave the church over the sanctuary." And I said, "We have men who believe the heavenly sanctuary is an exact parallel with the earthly sanctuary in just about every detail." He said, "Let them think it, Brother Ford, we know better than that." And he told me about his experience when he was on the committee that tried W. W. Fletcher in this country about the end of the 1920s. Nichol told me, he said, "Brother Spicer said to me, 'It doesn't pay to be too literalistic about the sanctuary. It just doesn't pay. It won't work.'"

    A few years after that, Elder Nichol went in to Brother Fighur. He said, "Brother Fighur, I am getting so many questions on the sanctuary. Can't we have a committee?" Brother Fighur said, "Yes, we'll have a committee." They decided to have a committee where no minutes would be kept. This committee went on for five years and published nothing. The committee contained the brightest lights in Adventist scholarship. Men from our own university, men from the Review and Herald, the editors of the Commentary, and well known scholars around the field. No unanimity could be reached. They had planned originally to publish some documents. That plan was never fulfilled, and no minutes of the meetings remained, after five years of meetings.

    Several of the people in those meetings took the position that it was impossible to prove the Investigative Judgment from the Bible. These were very prominent, loyal Seventh-day Adventists. They were not apostates, they were loyal Seventh-day Adventists. And if I gave you their names, they certainly would make quite an impression upon you. Suffice it to say that at least three or four of them were prominent editors or writers of the SDA Commentary. And that we have thousands of pages of denominational literature written by these men. And several of them declared there is no biblical way of proving the Investigative Judgment.

    Today, in the 1970s, in every area of our ranks, from the General Conference down, there are men that hold the same opinion. This is true in all our key institutions. I know many of the Bible teachers personally, and I could itemize off a number that take the same position as some of the SDA Commentary Bible writers and editors as expressed in that committee.

    For example, one document that was circulated at that time began with this statement: "Application of the accepted norms of the grammatical-historical method to Daniel 8:9-14 does not yield the Adventist interpretation of this passage of Scripture."

    From time to time I receive letters, from ministers mainly, who are embarrassed on this topic. Here's one from a man who just left the ministry a little time ago. A good soul-winner, a very earnest Christian, I know him very well. Here's what he wrote: "It's almost a year ago I made the most difficult decision I've ever had to make. In spite of my love for my church, my work, and, above all, my wife, I felt myself compelled by conscience to withdraw from the ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist church. The main reason why I finally took this rather traumatic heart-wrenching step was because I had come to disbelieve my church's teaching of a pre-advent Investigative Judgment. I write this paper not as a polemic against the Adventist church but in the sincere hope that adequate answers might be forthcoming. I continue to love and admire much of what constitutes Adventism, and I still consider myself open to alternative viewpoints. I know my objections are, in the main, not new and that answers to these objections have been proffered in the past. However, there's a difference between an answer and a convincing answer." This was part of the paper he enclosed with his letter.

    Here's a statement from another letter: "The Bible, and the Bible only, can be believed [this was from an Adventist, too, who was] after first bringing it into line with the so-called Spirit of Prophecy in Adventism. I was conscious that most opposition came from the reliance on something outside the Bible, and even when the Bible is quoted in an attempt to oppose my views, I see that the opposition is because of faith in what Sister White has written, rather than as a necessity to believe a text from Scripture that it means what it says. For example, a day for a year is a Bible text often quoted, and they think we deny Scripture if we say, 'Nowhere does the Bible give a day for a year as a prophecy,' and yet this is true. See Number 14:34. The prophecy is for 40 years, not 40 days."

    Here's another letter, this one from one of our missionaries. "Hebrews seems to say that Jesus entered the very presence of God for us once for all and to the right hand of God, etc., at the ascension. Mrs. White, in early writings of Great Controversy, puts him outside the veil, in the outer apartment somehow, not inside." And then he goes on to talk about his embarrassment that he can't discuss it with his fellow missionaries, and he's just wondering what to do.

    Here's a letter received just this week from another continent. "It all started a few years ago when I rediscovered the gospel. At that time we had a Sabbath school quarterly on the Epistle to the Hebrews. I decided then to follow candidly the text in the Epistle's author's reasoning. I couldn't find anything about a cleansing of the sanctuary or an atonement sometime beyond Christ's ministry on earth. I believe Christ went into the most holy place at his ascension. He was accepted in God's presence, because he had completed his ministry of salvation in favor of mankind." And then he goes on to plead for help in his situation.

    Here's another Adventist. "Returning again to Daniel 8:14, as much as I would have liked to salvage some contemporary fulfillment, I find the Scriptures silent on 1844. Christ entered God's unveiled presence once - at the ascension. As much as we commiserate with the pioneers that on October 23 Edson was deceived in the cornfield, we cannot construct a soteriological system on a historical non-occurrence." I think what he's saying there, and he may have left out a word or two, is that we can't construct a doctrine on the fact that Edson had some sort of a conviction in the cornfield. There are some unthinking people that would like to make a joke out of the fact that it was in a cornfield.

    Here's another one from a Bible teacher, a prominent Bible teacher in our work. "If an Investigative Judgment is necessary to determine who are prepared for the Kingdom of God, how was it that Christ was able to assure the disciples beforehand? That in the regeneration, when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of his glory, they also would sit upon twelve thrones. How was Christ able to say to the dying thief, 'You'll be with me in paradise'? The truth is the Lord knoweth them that are his. 2 Timothy 2:19: '"I know my sheep," declares the good shepherd, "and am known of mine."'" And I could read on and on in that one.

    There was another, a real scorcher, that came this week. I may have mislaid it, and that might be as well. It said what the others said, but with much greater emphasis. Maybe we'll leave it for the present.

    Well, these are typical letters. Now because this tape will be used in some rather nefarious ways, because it will be strained and every syllable will be weighed and measured, added thereto or truncated, let me state my convictions, my personal convictions, before I go any further.

    I believe in a pre-Advent Judgment, with every man's destiny settled before the coming of Christ. I believe the Day of Atonement has a special application to Christ's last work, as prefigured by the work in the second apartment. I believe the Seventh-day Adventist Movement was raised up in 1844 by God to do a special work and that to it was restored the gift of prophecy in the person of Ellen G. White. There, for the record, they are my true convictions.

    Now let me give you some positive supports for the Adventist position - or let me allude to them, because I mainly want to give you the problems. I have been working in this area for many, many years. I did my M.A. thesis in this area. I went to England about ten years ago to work in this area and to ransack the Hebrew, the Greek, as well as commentaries in the French and the Dutch and the German and so on, on this very topic. I felt that the conclusions reached from this study substantiated very strongly what I've been teaching my own students for many years regarding the problems of Hebrews 9 and Daniel 8. Much of this, by way of conclusions, I put in my commentary on Daniel, particularly in the preface to Daniel 8 and the preface to Daniel 9. And don't forget the small print, the footnotes.

    But by way of illustration, here is a work that's a ten-year doctoral thesis. Lloyd Gaston is no stone on another. He's no fundamentalist or conservative. But in this volume, I find a typical summary of what some of the best of modern scholars are saying on topics that concern us as Seventh-day Adventists. This man, for example, says: "It is impossible to rest content with saying that Antiochus Epiphanies completely fulfilled the prophecy of Daniel 8."

    Now, those of you that have read my little commentary know that I believe that Antiochus Epiphanies was an apolesmatic fulfillment, a prior anticipatory, typical fulfillment, just like A.D. 70 is the preliminary fulfillment of Matthew 24. But I certainly do not believe Antiochus Epiphanies is a complete of the little horn. And here's a modern writer, expressing the views of many, that says you can't get rid of Daniel 8 and say it only belongs to second century B.C. by talking about Antiochus. It is an eschatological passage and reaches down to the time of the end. And he goes on to say that Daniel 8:14 is a parallel to the picture of the judgment in Daniel 7, and that the expression "then shall the sanctuary be cleansed" has to do with an eschatological community of believers being justified.

    I just mention that as representative of a number of works that could be adduced on a positive vein. I want to get to the problems. Let me just start with three.

    One of the main problems that faces us is certainly that of the year/day principle. Let me read to you from the Review and Herald. I always feel safe when I do that. April 5, 1979, page six. It was a question sent to the review: "Why does Jesus say specifically, addressing the disciples who asked him about end events, 'I tell you this: The present generation will live to see it all.'" The writer is quoting the New English Bible of Matthew 24:34. Then the writer says, "But obviously he knew the 2300 day prophecy needed to be fulfilled before his return."

    And then the Review and Herald editor, one of the editors, answers and in the answer occurs these words: "If certain conditions had been met, Jesus would have come earlier, seemingly as early as the generation specified in Matthew 24:34." That is, this editor of the Review is saying, yes, Jesus could have come in that generation. Did you get the verse? "I tell you this: The present generation will live to see it all." The Second Coming. And the Review editor says, yes, it could have happened.

    If these explanation is accepted and Jesus had come long ere this, what would have happened to the long-term time prophecies of 1260 days and 2300? Some have felt that Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6 established the year/day principle as needing to be applied to all time prophecies. But a careful examination of these passages shows that the principle is applied only to specific cases, that there's no general statement in these passages suggesting that a universal principle is set forth. In fact, Adventists do not apply the principle consistently to all time prophecies. The Holy Spirit gave directions about the year/day principle only after time was postponed. But whatever time the fulfillment would have come, the Holy Spirit could have provided the appropriate scale. And then it goes on and on in that vein. That was the Review and Herald.

    Now the Adventist Review. April 5, 1979, "Bible Questions Answered," in which it clearly says that the year/day principle is not to be taken as a Bible principle for all time prophecies and that Christ could have come in the first generation. I could talk to you for hours on this one, but I've already written a good deal on it that's been published, and I've written a good deal more that, Lord willing, will be published, so I'll leave it at that for the present.

    The second problem is this one: In Daniel 8:13 and 14, we have a problem of context. In Daniel 8, we read about the nasty little horn, treading down the sanctuary. The nasty little horn doing a work of transgression. And then it says, "How long?" to give the sanctuary to be trodden underfoot by this nasty little horn. And the answer is given: "Under 2300 days." But now note: Adventists talk about the nasty little horn, the Antichrist doing his work on earth, and then suddenly, instead of Antichrist defiling the sanctuary, they start talking about the saints defiling the sanctuary with their sins and, thus, needing a cleansing.

    Now are you following me? The context of Daniel 8:14 has to do with a wicked power defiling the sanctuary, not the sins of the saints. And the question is asked: "How long will this wicked power defile the sanctuary?" And Adventists, in answering it, forget about the sins of the wicked power and start talking about the sins of the saints. They switch from earth to heaven, and they go from Daniel 8 back to Leviticus 16. This is rather thin. It ignores the contextual problem.

    The third issue, because I have answered that one also in print, has to do with the word "cleanse." "Under 2300 days, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." On the basis of that word, our pioneers linked this prophecy with Leviticus 16, but the word isn't there. You say, "Of course it's there." No, it's not there. The KJV is a mistranslation. The word translated "cleanse" there is not found in Leviticus 16. It's a different word altogether. That's why almost all modern translations do not use "cleanse," and therefore, from all other translations, you are crippled as a way of getting back to Leviticus 16.

    Now let me state it again. Adventists have traditionally jumped from Daniel 8:14 to Leviticus 16 on the basis of the word "cleanse." "Then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." The point is, the word "cleanse" isn't there. It's a mistranslation. It's a translation borrowed from the Septuagint, which used the word because it thought that the context was talking about Antiochus Epiphanies and the cleansing ceremonially by the Maccabees about 168 B.C. But the Hebrew word isn't "cleanse" at all, and the Hebrew word here used is nowhere found in Leviticus 16. That's why in my own commentary on Daniel I refused to take that route.

    Now there's nothing new in bringing these objections to your attention. They have been taught for years in our seminary. Dr. Heppenstall for many, many years has explained these problems and given his own answers.

    Now let me come to the real problem, and I hope you have a Bible. And, if so, would you turn with me to Hebrews 9? There's only one place in the New Testament where the Day of Atonement is given a detailed explanation, and that's in Hebrews 9 and 10. This is the only place. You remember the theme of Hebrews is that Christianity is better. In chapter one, it says Christ is better than the prophets. It goes on to say he's better than the angels. Then it comes on and says he's better than Moses. Then it says he's better than Joshua. Now we're up to chapter four. And then he's better than Malkezedek. And when you get to chapters eight, nine, and ten, it says he's better than Aaron, the great high priest of Israel, who made the Day of Atonement every year for Israel. He's better than Aaron. Chapters eight, nine, and ten are on that subject.

    Chapter nine, in particular, goes into detail on the Day of Atonement. You'll find in this passage, likes verses - well, let's take verse seven into the second, "Only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the errors of the people." Look at verse 12. It speaks about, "He entered once for all into the holy place [or as most versions give, 'the most holy place'], taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood." And then in verse 24, Christ has entered, not into a most holy place made with hands, a copy of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest entered the holy place yearly [that word "holy place" means "most holy" in this context] with blood not his own.

    Please note that Hebrews 9 is talking about an entering of the second apartment once a year with the blood of bulls and goats. Let's take our most recent translation, the New International. I'll read to you just one or two verses from there. Please note it very well, indeed, because later on some of you will say, "But the Spirit of Prophecy says," and I agree with what the spirit of prophecy says, but I want to make sure you understand all that the Spirit of Prophecy says and, even before you know that, all that the Bible says. That's the place to start.

    Now here's Hebrews 9, and please note what it says in verse 12: "He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves, but he entered the most holy place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption."

    In case some folks try, as Questions on Doctrine tried and some other books have tried, to make an issue out of the Greek, the word that is here translated "most holy place" is literally "holies." The Septuagint uses it repeatedly in Leviticus 16 for the most holy place. The word itself can mean the sanctuary as a whole, or it can mean the first apartment, or it can mean the second apartment. You can prove nothing from the Greek, because it has these possibilities, but from the context it is obvious. It's speaking about a place that the high priest alone went once every year with the blood of bulls and goats.

    Are you with me? Listen to it again. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves - that's bull calves that were offered on the Day of Atonement - but he entered the most holy place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. Verse 25: "Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the most holy place every year with blood that is not his own."

    Back to verses 7 and 8: "Only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance." The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the most holy place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle, the first apartment, was still standing.

    Please note, it's talking about goats and calves. They were the offerings for the Day of Atonement. It's talking about the once-a-year entrance, and that was the most holy place. It's talking about the high priest, his distinctive work was only that. He supervised things in the first apartment, but he had no distinctive work there. The distinctive work of the high priest was the second apartment.

    Furthermore, it's talking about the cleansing with blood of the heavenly sanctuary. Verse 23: "It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves were better sacrifices than these, for Christ didn't enter a man-made sanctuary, but he entered heaven itself." The cleansing of the sanctuary, the Day of Atonement, is what is being discussed.

    Let me underline it again, because you must get this point. The book of Hebrews distinctly teaches that Christ went directly into the most holy place at his ascension. There is no way out, around, or through it. I have ransacked every nook and corner, and twisted every syllable. There is no way out or around or through it. The book of Hebrews, chapter 9, teaches that Christ went directly into the most holy place at his ascension.

    I will repeat for you verses 7 and 12. "Only the high priest entered the inner room. That only once a year and never without blood which he offered for himself." Then in verse 12: "He didn't enter by means of the blood of goats and calves, but he entered the most holy place once for all by his own blood."

    Every commentary in the world has seen it, my friends, except one or two by Seventh-day Adventists.

    Now, in chapter 6 and verse 19, we have a very important expression used, "within the veil," which casts light on this topic. Verse 19: "We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, or within the veil, where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf."

    Here, Hebrews 6:19 and 20 clearly says Jesus went within the veil. This expression is only used in the Old Testament for going into the second apartment. There is one possible exception, which is really no exception. Numbers 18:7, that I could speak on at greater length. The book of Hebrews, when it quotes the Old Testament, always quotes the Greek version, the Septuagint. And the Septuagint only uses this Greek phrase for the second veil. That was the only one cultically significant. The only one. And the expression "within the veil" always means "into the second apartment." There are about a dozen statements in the New Testament where it says Christ entered and went and sat down on the right hand of God or sat down on the throne of God. "I overcame and am sat down with my Father on his throne," Revelation 3. A dozen times it says he's entered straight into the presence of God.

    CONTINUED IN THE NEXT POST


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     The 4 Horsemen, the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, 2 Witnesses and 7 Plagues in the Logos Timeline of the Apocalypse    Empty Re: The 4 Horsemen, the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, 2 Witnesses and 7 Plagues in the Logos Timeline of the Apocalypse

    Post  orthodoxymoron Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:08 pm

    CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST

    Adventists have sometimes tried to get around this by inventing a moveable throne. Now, whether that means that the ark is left behind in the mercy seat in there and just some other aspect of the throne comes out, I'm not sure. But the Spirit of Prophecy is very clear that the most holy place was the center of the divine work of atonement. And there's no biblical basis whatever for moving the throne. None whatever.

    And if some here at this point wish to say, "But Sister White saw in vision the Father arise and enter a flaming chariot and go from the holy into the most holy," I would remind you that you should read closely what the Seventh-day Adventist commentary says on the nature of symbolic vision in its notes on Ezekiel 1. A special note at the end of Ezekiel 1, where it points out that the prophets didn't see the actual but saw a representation that was meant to teach them something.

    In Early Writings, you read in the supplementary notes, the supplement Ellen White put in, how she was criticized for describing certain people bowing before the throne who were wicked people. And the critics said, "Fancy having those people in heaven." And Ellen White said, "I never meant to say they were in heaven. I am but recording it as it was presented to me. Didn't John see a great red dragon in heaven?" Ellen White had a sense of humor.

    Apocalyptic visions are not to be taken as graphical, literal representations of the unseen, my friends. They are sketches within the experience and culture of the contemporary prophet to teach them something. It's very important to understand that.

    When you read in Jeremiah 13 about the prophet Jeremiah being told to take a girdle and take it to the Euphrates and then after 70 days go and get it back, you might be led to think that was next door. It was a thousand miles away. And United didn't exist then. He didn't go to the Euphrates, nor did he go and get it back. It was all done in vision.

    And when you read in Ezekiel 4 about the prophet lying on his side 360 days, he never did, except in vision. And some of the things that Hosea did that may seem to shock you, find the same key of explanation.

    So within the veil, sitting at the right hand of God, on the throne of God, can only mean the most holy place.

    We've said many things in connection with the sanctuary that won't stand. We have spoken about how every day the blood went into the holy place and was sprinkled there and so it became defiled. Two errors there. Number one, the blood usually didn't go into the holy place at all. It was very, very rare the blood went into the holy place. Usually, it was poured outside of the altar. Secondly, we speak about blood defiling. You will not find anywhere in Scripture that the blood of a sacrifice ever defiles. It was always presented as cleanings. Always. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sins.

    Well, there's nothing adequate in print on these topics. I've had a few swipes at it in print, but knew if I was very frank, it would never be published. So I said as much as I could, beginning back in the 1950s, and I have had some things published, touching on the problem.

    What shall we say about it? Well, the first thing that I must say is in answer to what you will say. "But Ellen White." So let me point out to you that Ellen White clearly teaches that Christ went into the most holy place at his ascension. In one place, she says, "Still bearing humanity, he ascended to heaven, triumphant and victorious. He has sprinkled the blood of the atonement on the mercy seat." That's at his ascension. Let me give you the reference. Signs of the Times, April 19, 1905.

    Listen to it again. "Still bearing humanity, he ascended to heaven, triumphant and victorious. He has taken the blood of the atonement into the holiest of all" - notice she's quoting Hebrews 9 and 10, and she's applying the holiest of all to the most holy place, the place where the mercy seat is. Because the second half of the sentence says, "... sprinkled it upon the mercy seat."

    So, here, Ellen White says that Christ, at his ascension, went into the most holy place and sprinkled the blood on the mercy seat.

    I would point out to you that after Ballenger had written his books on this topic, E. Andross, a very devout Adventist scholar, for the first time went into print as saying, "Yes, 'within the veil' does mean 'the most holy place,' and Christ did go there, immediately ascended." That book is a more excellent ministry by E. Andross. But, of course, Andross had to get out of it some way, so he said, "He went in and he came out again and went back into the first."

    Listen to this one from Acts of the Apostles, page 33. And please note that Ellen White, here, as in many other places, is a rebel. The greatest rebel we've ever had amongst us was Ellen White. Praise God! No Adventist writer would have dared to write some of the things she wrote. I'm so glad she wrote them. They convinced me that she was led of the Spirit of God in the way that you and I have not been led. Listen to this one from Acts of the Apostles. It's a wonder the editors didn't wipe it out. "As in the typical service, the high priest laid aside his pontifical robes and officiated in the white linen dress of an ordinary priest, so Christ laid aside his royal robes and garbed himself with humanity and offered sacrifice, himself the priest, himself the victim. As the high priest, after performing his service in the holy of holies, came forth to the waiting congregation in his pontifical robes, so Christ will come the second time."

    Now, please note, here she applies the Day of Atonement from the incarnation to the Second Advent. Did you get it? "As in the typical service, the high priest laid aside his pontifical robes and officiated in the white linen dress." When was that? The Day of Atonement, that's the only day. As the high priest did that on the Day of Atonement, so Christ laid aside his royal robes and garbed himself with humanity. There's the incarnation. And offered sacrifice himself the priest, himself the victim. Here she goes beyond Uriah Smith. Uriah Smith said he wasn't a priest. Crows said he wasn't a priest. Crows and Smith both said it wasn't an atonement. Ellen White departs from them on all three. She says it was the atonement at the cross, he was a priest, and it was the Day of Atonement from the incarnation here.

    Now please don't go out and say, "Des Ford says the Day of Atonement began the incarnation." Please go out and say, "Ellen White says." I didn't write Acts of the Apostles. I wish I could have.

    From the SDA Commentary Bible, Volume 5, 1109, the mercy seat is open to all who accept Christ as the proficiation for sin, the veil is rent, the partition wall is broken down. "Christ came to demolish every wall of partition, to throw open every compartment of the temple." This is Christ's Object Lessons, page 386.

    This is why, my friends, in the book of Revelation, where you have some of the furniture symbolically pictured from the first apartment, and in the second apartment you never find a veil. You never find a veil. The New Testament knows nothing about a veil in the heavenly temple. Ellen White says, "There's a new and living way into the holiest of all before which there hangs no veil." That's Ellen White.

    But the strongest statement I leave to last. It's never been noticed. We can read and read and read and not know what we're reading. But in a book written years after Great Controversy, the greatest book Ellen White ever wrote, a book where she is more careful to exegete rather than just homiletically apply passages, the Desire of Ages, the greatest book in the world next to Scripture. All this talk about Ellen White's plagiarism. Sure she used other books in preparing this book. She used Hanna, Dr. Harris, Ed Ashime, Farrer, Daniel Marsh, and a number of other books. Sure she did. But, my friends, those books were open for anyone. I don't see them coming up with the Desire of Ages. The issue isn't, Did Ellen White use sources? It's, What use did she make of them? What did she come up with? The sources are available for everyone, and people don't come up with a thimble full of quality. The sources are there.

    So here's the greatest book she ever wrote, and please notice what she says at the end of the chapter on Calvary. Speaking about the rending of the veil: "The earth trembles and quakes, the Lord himself draws near. With a rending noise, the inner veil of the temple is torn from top to bottom by an unseen hand, throwing open to the gaze of the multitude a place once filled with the presence of God. In this place the shakina had dwelled. Here God had manifested his glory above the mercy seat. No one but the high priest ever lifted the veil, separating this apartment from the rest of the temple. He entered in once a year to make an atonement."

    And then a little lower down she says, "Now type has met antitype. The great sacrifice has been made. The way into the holiest is laid open [quoting Hebrews 9 and 10]. A new and living way is prepared for all [do read it in its setting, Hebrews 10:19 and 20, a new and living way through the veil]." Here, that's what she's quoting. "The way into the holiest is laid open, a new and living way is prepared for all. No longer need sinful, sorry humanity await the coming of the high priest." And then she quotes Hebrews 9 and 12, which, as I read to you in the latest version, translates as Christ went into the most holy place at his ascension. She used the version available to her, which had "holy place," which the translators knew meant "the second apartment," because holy place is the name given to the second apartment right throughout Leviticus 16, about five times. And it's in Leviticus 16 where you have "within the veil" used repeatedly.

    I marvel at the way Ellen White was not afraid to go right against Adventist traditions, right against some things she had apparently written herself, and when here she dealt in exegesis, she came right within the most precise specifications of biblical exegesis of the passage under review. And she pictured Christ going straight into the most holy place, as she has done in these other places, where it says he went in and sprinkled the blood on the mercy seat and so on.

    Well, what shall we say about the solution to the problem? The coming of Christ, my friends, was the end of the world and the judgment of the world. "Now is the judgment of this world." Once at the end of the world has he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. The coming of Christ was the end of the world, my friends, legally, forensically. And all the things that happened in principle with the death of Christ are repeated again at the end of the age, when that which is forensically true already becomes, in a sensory fashion, manifest.

    Let me illustrate what I mean. Theologians talk about inaugurated eschatology. What they mean is that when Christ came and said, "The kingdom is at hand, the kingdom is among you, now is the judgment." When Christ spoke about everlasting life now for those who believe, and when the New Testament says, "The devil was destroyed by the cross," theologians say, "All these statements are saying that somehow the end of the world came with the First Advent."

    And then they talk about consummated eschatology, by which they mean the real, obvious end of the world. And you can take themes like judgment, eternal life, the destruction of Satan, new Creation, outpouring of the Spirit, the harvest - they all fit the First Advent, and they all fit the Second.

    Let me illustrate it more. We know that the passover pointed to the cross of Christ. But the New Testament also makes it point to the Second Coming. "As oft as ye drink this cup, ye do drink it till he comes." The passover is made to point towards the Second Advent as well as the First. Pentecost saw the early rain. And on Pentecost, Peter said, "This is that that was foretold by the prophet Joel: 'I will pour out in the last days my spirit on all flesh.'" But Pentecost, like passover, is to have a repetition at the end of the age. Consummated eschatology, as well as inaugurated eschatology.

    Take the jubilee. In Luke 4:16-20, when Christ stood up at Nazareth, he said, "The spirit of the Lord is upon me. He's anointed me to preach good tidings. The year of release to the captives." And then he spoke in terms of the jubilee imagery. But the real jubilee, of course, is at the Second Advent, when the captives are released from the grave, when the devil is destroyed, when we all go into our eternal reward.

    So the Bible, my friends, applies the passover, Pentecost, jubilee, to the judgment at the end of the First Advent, and the judgment at the end of the world. And it's not a strange thing that it should say the same thing with the Day of Atonement. Does anyone here think the goat was slain in 1844? The Day of Atonement, my friends, is the same as the Atonement. It was the day the atonement was made, and of course that points to Calvary. How else could it! What else could e 637, where she makes the great earthquake at the Second Advent. Read Revelation 16:18 and 16:14. Those signs she recorded in harmony with the history of the Movement. She wasn't saying that's the end of it.

    Matthew 25 in Great Controversy is applied to the midnight cry in 1844. But read Christ's Object Lessons. That's not even mentioned. She gives the exegetical meaning. Great Controversy wasn't wrong, my friends, anymore wrong than about the signs, but it wasn't complete.

    And similarly about the cleansing of the sanctuary. If you'll only read Great Patriarchs and Prophets, written years after. And I don't have time to read it, but in the chapter on the tabernacle a churches as a whole.

    So the New Testament applies the Day of Atonement type both to what happened in inaugurated eschatology, the forensic judgment, "Now is the judgment of this world," John 12:31, the cross; and it also applies it to the judgment at the end of the age, when the merits of the atonement it will be seen who has laid hold of them in the Great Judgment Day.

    Now Adventists have caught the second, but not the first. Other churches did it in reverse. But Ellen White had both. And, please, don't forget it.

    There is a primary reason why the Day of Atonement has these two applications. They could both have merged. The New Testament, my friends, does not contemplate twenty centuries after Christ. Read the SDA Bible Commentary on Revelation 1, where it correctly says Christ could have come back in the First Advent, just after the cross. Of course, he could, my friends. Prophets and Kings, pp. 703, 704, says it was God's purpose that the whole world be prepared for the First Advent. Would it have taken twenty centuries if the whole world had been ready for the First Advent? Of course not, my friends.

    Now, listen. Put aside your preconceived opinion and listen to these clear texts. What is the New Testament saying? "God, who at sundry times and died as man, has spake unto the fathers by the prophets, has spoken in these last days by his son. Once at the end of the world has he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Yet a little time, and he will come. It is the last hour, the night is fast spent, the morning is at hand, behold I come quickly. This generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled. There are some standing here that won't taste of death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. You'll not have gone over all the cities of Israel until the Son of Man become."

    My friends, it's as plain as the nose on your face that the New Testament teaches that the end was meant to come just after the First Advent. If the church had seized hold of the gospel, understood the good news, and in the exuberance of joy and the great gift of God, gone out to spread it to the whole world - because Jesus cannot come until the whole world has heard the gospel, and the only thing that holds up the Second Advent is that people understand the gospel. Once they understand it, they can't help but spread it. The trouble is, we've never understood it. That's why we're so Laodecean. That's why we're marching, marching, ever marching, backwards.

    Do you know it took us until 1911 before we had as many people as William Miller had in 1844? It took us until 1911. Now the statistics are exploding so that unless some new thing happened within Adventism, friends, we'll be a forgotten sect at the turn of the century, or not long after. The only thing that held up the return of Christ after the cross was a church that understood the meaning of the cross. And that's what Matthew 24:14 is saying.

    If you look at the last days of our Lord Jesus Christ, they represent the last days of his body. His body is the church. The last days of our Lord Jesus - remember, he preached 1260 days, he has anointed the Holy Spirit, there was a loud cry in his ministry, great signs and wonders, he polarized the people. Then the opposing churches got together, and they linked arms with the state. They said it's expedient one man should perish and not the whole world. They passed the death decree. He had a little time of trouble. He was sealed for his mission. He was determined to go through with it. His probation shut. He had a bigger time of trouble on the cross. And the plagues fell, darkness, signs in the heavens.

    My friends, the next thing that happened was that attention was drawn to the most holy place. Because that veil represented his flesh, and when the flesh of Christ was torn, my friends, there was no barrier to entering boldly into the presence of God, accepted because of the merits of the crucified Christ. That's the gospel.

    So there, in the last days of Jesus Christ, the 1260 days of preaching, the polarizing of the people, the anointing of the Spirit, a latter rain, a loud cry, union of church and state, the death decree, time of trouble, signs in the heavens. The cleansing of the sanctuary? He did that in his last days. The attention to the most holy place. They had prefigured the work of his body in the last days, my friends. It's all taught out in Revelation 11, where it uses the same things about the church as applied to Jesus Christ.

    What happened in 1844? God brought this church back to apostolic privilege, brought it back to the place where it could see the significance of the cross, brought it back to that place where if it would lay hold of the gospel, symbolized by the sanctuary, if it could lay hold of the blessed truth, represented by the daily, it would spread to the world and Jesus would come. Every man's destiny would be decided in the Judgment. "And he that is holy would be holy still, and he that is filthy would be filthy still. And, behold, I come quickly."

    In 1844 God gave this church the opportunity of fulfilling the apostolic commission, and Ellen White says that had all the people in the Miller Movement accepted it, Christ would have been back just after 1844!

    Well, says someone, the Great Controversy doesn't say it that way. Let me say a few things to you on the Spirit of Prophecy. The best way to undo, my friends, is to overdo. And I treasure the writings of the Spirit of Prophecy. I've tried, tried, and tried again to apply its principles, and I have failed miserably a million. And but for the gospel she reveals, I would be most discouraged. But I do know that those writings brought me to Christ. I do know those writings led me to the Bible. I do know those writings speak to my heart with an intensity and a conviction that no other human author has ever done. And having said that, I believe we misuse her writings in an abominable fashion. I believe we do things that would have made her hair stand on end and made her very angry.

    Listen to what she wrote and which we have forgotten. The book Evangelism, page 256: "The testimonies of Sister White should not be carried to the front. God's Word is the unerring standard. The testimonies are not to take the place of the Word. Let all prove their position from the Scriptures, substantiate every point they claim as truth from the revealed Word of God. Never do we want any soul to bring in the testimonies ahead of the Bible."

    How come we don't do that? I mean, how come we don't do what she says? We do bring the testimonies ahead of the Bible. We do it all the time. You know, the Bible is a difficult book. But the testimonies, I can understand that. That's nineteenth century and twentieth century English.

    My friends, there is nothing of truth in the testimony that's not in the Bible, Ellen White says. Nothing. Ellen White did not give us a single truth of doctrine. Read sometime Movement of Destiny on that very subject. And read in this book, because I don't have time to enlarge on it, all the Ellen White quotes that say that the Bible, and the Bible only, is our standard of doctrine. That every point of doctrine is to come from the Bible. And she says the Bible is the only true source of doctrine that's unmixed with error. Boy, that sounds dangerous, but Ellen White said it.

    Let me talk to you about Ellen White's role. Ellen White's role, my friends, is pastoral, not canonical. Not canonical. You have in the writings of Ellen White more than you've got in the whole Bible. And when Ellen White said she's a lesser light, she meant what she said. It wasn't just a becoming humility. She meant what she said. Her writer's role is not canonical. The gift of prophecy is not the gift of omniscience.

    Adventists think that anything Ellen White ever spoke about, that was the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and so on. My friends, it wasn't always. How do we know? Because often she says something different in another book. Which is often complimentary, not necessarily contradictory.

    So the gift of prophecy is not the gift of omniscience, my friends. John the Baptist was the greatest of the prophets, said Jesus. Among those born of women, there hasn't been a greater than John the Baptist. He didn't have everything straight. He spoke about Christ, "His fork is his hand, he'll thoroughly purge his floor, he'll gather the wheat into the barn, he'll burn up the chaff with fire." And he meant then. He meant then. He didn't have everything straight. He didn't understand about the kingdom of Grace. He didn't understand about the spiritual kingdom. He looked for a material kingdom, and pronto. And this greatest of the prophets had his doubts: "Art thou he that should come or do we look for another?"

    My friends, the gift of prophecy is not the gift of omniscience. Ellen White would have been burdened above all measure if she thought she was supposed to know everything about everything. We don't know everything about anything. Everything is related to everything else. Therefore, you can't know everything about everything, and not everything about anything.

    Take the apostles. They all had the gift of prophecy, but truth came slowly. After the ascension of Christ, they still believed in a shut-door theory for years. Only Jews could make it, the Gentiles were shut out. God had to work miracles in order to convince them that a Gentile had a chance at salvation, too. The apostles had the gift of prophecy, my friends. They called the apostles then prophets, but they didn't understand everything. Neither did Ellen White.

    Someone with the gift of prophecy is not inerrant, my friends. Please read sometime what Ellen White says about her own gift in Selection Messages, Volume One, the first chapter. She says, "As for infallibility, I've never claimed it." She says, "Some look at it as gravely and they say about the manuscripts of the Bible, 'Couldn't there be mistakes in those manuscripts?'" And she says, "Of course there could be! The mind that would stumble over that would stumble over anything." And she goes on to say the Bible is not given in grand, superhuman language, but it's given for practical purposes. And she says the miracles are not recorded in their exact order. And she goes on and lists other imperfections. She says, "God's not on trial in the logic of Scripture."

    My friends, we misunderstand the nature of inspiration. Inspiration, like all the acts of God, is beyond our comprehension. And it's for practical purposes. The glorious sun under which we walk has spots on it. Will we therefore walk in some subterranean channel? God never works miracles unnecessarily, my friends. Think of the type of man he chose to write the Epistles in the New Testament. He chose a theologian. He could have chosen a fisherman, but he didn't. Think of the people he chose to write the gospel. People who were associated with Jesus Christ in the flesh, or closely associated with those that did. If inspiration was what many people think, he could have taken any schoolboy. Put a pen in his hand and said, "Write. W-R-I-T-E." He didn't do it that way.

    We need to understand what inspiration is about. Inspiration is not inerrancy. Ellen White said, "As for infallibility, I've never claimed it. The Bible is the only source of truth," she says, "unmixed with error," which suggests that even the writings of the non-canonical prophets, my friends, were not inerrant. As a matter of fact, if you'll apply a strict rule, even the writings of the Bible are not inerrant. And if that sounds blasphemous, that is our official position. Which doesn't make it right, but it makes it respectable. The church's official position is that the Bible is not inerrant. It is reliable, it's an infallible rule of doctrine, but we've never ever taught inerrancy. We have many, many articles in print denying it. Please read sometime the book The Testimony of Jesus by F. L. Wilcox, that great editor of The Review, in which he has a whole chapter, no claim to infallibility.

    When Ellen White put out Spiritual Gifts, the first 400 volumes, she said, "Please correct me where I've made any mistakes. My memory might have been wrong. Please correct me so I can change it." In Great Controversy, Ellen White could write about Josiah Litch and his prophecy about August 11, 1840. But, my friends, Josiah Litch was wrong. The date he chose to begin the prophecy was years out, he forgot about the dropping out of the days in the calendar change, and he didn't understand what the text was saying anyway. The text in Revelation spoke about the hour, day, month, and year. It's not a period at all. It's a point. And every Greek scholar in the world knows it. And the SDA Commentary knows it, too, so they put a special note in the Commentary, saying, "Because of the difficulties of the Greek and our smallness of space, we will not enlarge upon the problem."

    Now I'm caricaturing it a little, and I hope that you'll read it for yourselves. When we put out a lesson quarterly on the trumpets, we said, "There are difficulties here." Great difficulties. Ellen White's endorsement of Litch was not correct. Litch was wrong. Absolutely wrong.

    On some topics, Ellen White just wasn't told. When she was asked about the daily, she said, "On this point, I've received no instruction." But she had written on it in early writings.

    Let me say something about the book Great Controversy. One other thing, first. We've said Ellen White is not omniscient, not inerrant. Neither has she a divine commentary on the Scripture, and bang goes a very cherished heirloom. Ellen White nowhere claims to be the inspired commentary on the Scripture, my friends. She said, "The Bible is yet but dimly understood." And she didn't say in brackets, "But if you read all my writings, that problem will be solved." She said, "The Bible is yet dimly understood." She said, "When the books of Daniel and Revelation are better understood, there will be revival amongst us." We haven't had the revival yet. Apparently, they're not well understood, and she didn't interpret them for us. You'll find that the most difficult passages in the Bible she doesn't comment on at all. She was given to make us lazy. She said, "Go to the Word." The Bible, my friends, is the source of every point of doctrine, and Ellen White always points us to the Bible.

    Great Controversy is a historical account of prophetic interpretation by Seventh-day Adventists at the time of the birth of that movement. She could talk about the signs and the sun, moon, and stars. And, my friends, the real meaning of those prophecies is obvious to anyone who reads the text. The great earthquake is the one that shakes every city and village and mountain and island at the end of time, not 1755 at Lisbon. And the falling of the stars are what accompany the coming of Jesus. And the darkening of the sun is what accompany the coming of Jesus. Please just read the Scriptures. They're as plain as can be.

    But God in his mercy gave previews of these things to accompany the Second Advent Movement and to give integrity to what it was saying. Those signs were of God, the earthquake at Lisbon. And the dark day, and the falling of stars. They were not the absolute fulfillment of Scripture on the signs, my friends. In Early Writings, page 41, she very distinctly says that these signs in the heavens take place at the voice of God at the Second Advent. Read Great Controversy, page 637, where she makes the great earthquake at the Second Advent. Read Revelation 16:18 and 16:14. Those signs she recorded in harmony with the history of the Movement. She wasn't saying that's the end of it.

    Matthew 25 in Great Controversy is applied to the midnight cry in 1844. But read Christ's Object Lessons. That's not even mentioned. She gives the exegetical meaning. Great Controversy wasn't wrong, my friends, anymore wrong than about the signs, but it wasn't complete.

    And similarly about the cleansing of the sanctuary. If you'll only read Great Patriarchs and Prophets, written years after. And I don't have time to read it, but in the chapter on the tabernacle and the services, she explains the cleansing of the sanctuary is the cleansing of the earth and the whole universe from sin at the very end of time.

    So to apply Daniel 8:14 just to 1844 only, my friends, is to misunderstand it entirely. It points to the Great Judgment that seals every man's destiny before the coming of Christ as they respond to the cross.

    Look, I must stop and say one more thing. Here's the most important thing this afternoon: What is the meaning of the Adventists' stress on the most holy place? It is this, my friends. God wants us to look at what's there. That holy law, which must be sustained and was sustained by the cross, to show that God is against evil, that God will not compromise with sin, that the law is the foundation of the universe, its bulwark and its keystone. But above it is a mercy seat. Duty has a twin sister, and it's love. God's not only like but he's love. So look at the mercy seat. Better still, look at the blood drops there. He means us to see Calvary, my friends. We are meant to see the law, the mercy seat, the blood, the cross, and then see that every man's destiny is sealed by his attitude to those things. It is the attitude we take to the blood of Christ shed on the cross to substantiate the law. It's the attitude we take to that that seals every man's destiny in the Judgment. And that, my friends, is our message to the world. And when we preach it, instead of preaching celestial geography, Jesus will come.

    It was a good American that said, "God offers every man [and I might add every Movement] truth or repose. You can take one or the other, but you can't have both."
    orthodoxymoron
    orthodoxymoron


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     The 4 Horsemen, the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, 2 Witnesses and 7 Plagues in the Logos Timeline of the Apocalypse    Empty Re: The 4 Horsemen, the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, 2 Witnesses and 7 Plagues in the Logos Timeline of the Apocalypse

    Post  orthodoxymoron Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:20 pm

    Here are some of my random thoughts (mostly from the Thuban Q&A) which are sort of related to the previous three posts:

    My theological background is Seventh-day Adventist. I don't go to church - but I still read some of their publications and books. I spent a lot of time listening to Dr. Robert H. Schuller - and I have attended Episcopal and Roman Catholic churches - on a very limited basis. I frankly got tired of the interpretive wars connected with prophecy. The fear, negativity, and even hatred generated seems to be highly counterproductive. I've frankly had it with most religions and philosophies. Elsewhere, someone seemed to imply that I might be one of those who would be calling for the rocks to fall on me - to hide me from the face of him that sitteth upon the throne - and from the wrath of the Lamb - because my internet posting had indeed been duly noted. I live a very, very boring and dull life. I do very little of anything. I have been too depressed and disillusioned to do much of anything. I have been attempting to find my way in connection with my internet activities - but this seems to have placed me on God's Fecal List, the Red (dead) List, and who knows how many other lists. My seeking has been sincere - and frankly irreverent - because history is a disaster - and I blame the gods and goddesses for a lot of the madness. If this includes him that sitteth upon the thone, and the Lamb - so be it. I simply wish for this solar system to be run properly. Does this doom me to eternal extermination by a god of love? Why is everything so $crewed-up? Why does so little make sense? Why is everyone so out of touch and irresponsible. Which book in the Bible discusses RESPONSIBILITY? Have any gods, goddesses, or sacred texts really taught the human race RESPONSIBILITY? It sounds as though there is going to be some sort of a god-off and extermination in the near future. What the hell is going on? I don't play numbers games anymore. I concentrate on principles, concepts, and the red-letter Teachings of Jesus.

    I have recently become particularly interested in the Archangels Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer. What type of beings are they? Are they in conflict with each other? If so...is the Human Race the central issue in this conflict? Is Michael really Jesus? Was Jesus the last Pharaoh? Is Mary a legitimate co-mediatrix with Jesus? Could Gabriel be identified with Zionism? Could Lucifer be identified with Teutonic Zionism? Could Michael be identified with the Andromedan perspective? Who is the God or Goddess of This World? Has corruption and sanity been a problem for this being? Are Satan and Lucifer two separate and distinct beings? Is there...or has there ever been...a God who was higher than Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer? If so...was this God destroyed in the War in Heaven? Is Satan one of these three? If so...which one? Did Lucifer instruct Charles Darwin? Would Human sovereignty in this Solar System be a good thing? Is a theocracy a good or a bad thing? Is Responsible Freedom fundamentally rebellious in nature? Can the Riemann Integral be applied to curved space? Is quantum physics valid...or would a modified classical physics provide a more secure foundation? What are the theological implications and ramifications of quantum physics? Why was Heisenberg uncertain? Can a particle really be influenced by observation?

    Have you ever read 'The Great Controversy' by Ellen G. White? If so...what is your opinion? Have you heard of Dr. Desmond Ford? (An Adventist Theologian from Australia) Dr. Desmond Ford http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Ford provides some interesting information regarding Daniel and the Revelation in several books. He studied under F.F. Bruce at Manchester University in England - receiving a doctorate in New Testament. He also received a doctorate in rhetoric - specifically rhetoric in the writings of Paul. I have huge theological differences with Dr. Ford - but he was/is quite the intellectual. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy37dpBXjEs I don't just pick on Lucifer and the Roman Catholics!!! I'm an equal-opportunity paradigm-basher!! Here is a link to the text of a very controversial lecture by Dr. Ford in 1979 regarding Daniel 8 and Hebrews 9. http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/library/1979forum/part1.cfm What is the proper interpretation of, and relationship between, Daniel 8:14 and Hebrews 9:12? Should the Biblical Cannon have ended with the Acts of the Apostles? Is the so called Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan really a Human vs Reptilian conflict? Or is it really between two individual beings? What are the soteriological implications of the human nature of Jesus Christ? Is the substitutionary atonement...in the context of the Old Testamental sacrificial system...a theological milestone...or a historical necessity? Is theology at the center of disclosure? Is Christocentric Egyptological Science Fiction a valid theological foundation or expression in modernity? Would a Non-Penetential, Non-Sacrificial, Ecumenical Namaste Mass...based upon the Latin Mass be a valid focal point for a Minimalist, Humanistic Theocracy based upon Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom? Is the All Seeing Eye at the Top of the Pyramid illuminated by the Dog Star Sirius? How important is Sirius? Is the God of This World the Prince of Sirius? Should the Protestant Reformation have been based upon the Teachings of Jesus? Are the Teachings of Jesus alone fundamental...and the rest of scripture merely contextual? Do Reptilian Beings hate Jesus Christ? If so...why? Is there a 'Heaven' in M-42 in Orion? What type of beings might be found in this portion of the heavens? Is there hope and redemption for all beings in the Universe? I want everyone to make it! Even the really evil beings...if this is possible. Some isolation and re-education might be necessary...and some might have to be eternally isolated. I don't know...but I do not wish harm or misery on any being...no matter who they are...what they look like...or what they have done. All of us may have some very filthy reincarnational baggage!

    In a sense...I don't care who's in charge...as long as Earth, the Solar System, and the Universe are properly governed...with a minimal level of corruption and insanity...and a maximum level of responsible freedom. Again...I'm not being sarcastic or flippant. The problem is...that Power Corrupts...and Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely. There may be no exceptions to this rule...which is why I am very nervous regarding Gods, Goddesses, and Theocracies. I'm not rebellious...just scared. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z7O7UZxipM I worry about things like the Crusades, the Inquisition, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx8PdvOELvY&feature=related the World Wars, Nuclear Weapons, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4LQaWJRDg Aimed Asteroids, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFwnGiu9eV8 Induced Pole Shifts and Tectonic Movements, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz86TsGx3fc Assassinations, Terrorism, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Mz0_x7313I Extermination Events https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9mFn9EhgU4 (such as the Global Flood, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKbEI8pDz0A Earth Changes, etc.)

    If the Devil Himself (or Herself) tried to become a Good-Guy or Good-Gal...some of us would try to crucify them...rather than try to assist them on their new path. I keep saying that I want No Gods...and that the first and last commandment should be 'Thou Shalt Have No Gods'. This goes for All Gods...good and evil. I don't discriminate. I also keep saying that, at some point, I would like to share a bottle of fine wine with Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer...and I mean it...even if they are Draconian Reptilians. I'd even have a beer with Satan. I want all of the Bad-Guys and Bad-Gals to become Good-Guys and Good-Gals...but will the sanctimonious and triumphalistic Do-Gooders allow this to occur? Even Jesus was courteous and respectful when he talked to the Devil (the God of This World) face to face. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6eTbhHE0jM Viewer discretion advised on the next link - actual exorcism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr8oJqpwZz4 Who are you gonna call? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyRqR56aCKc Can't we all just get along? Why is this so hard?

    Read Leviticus 21 regarding requirements pertaining to the sanctuary service. Is this chapter Christ-like in nature? Sacrifice (including human sacrifice) is found in Pagan religions and rituals. Were these religions inspired by Christ? Do we serve a blood-thirsty God? Does God require death and blood? If not...then who does? The sanctuary service and substitutionary atonement are all about death and blood...as is the eucharistic liturgy...especially if one includes the doctrine of transubstantiation. There is no body of evidence to substantiate transubstantiation. Christ hanging (bleeding and mostly naked) from the walls of churches around the world is sick. Isn't this a bit like placing pictures of the Kennedy assassination in government buildings throughout the US? Did Jesus tell us to build churches, and conduct rituals centered in death and blood? If He didn't...who did?

    Are Leviticus and Romans equally authoritative for us today? Did Paul follow the Great Commission...or create a New Theology? I would love to know all of the behind the scenes details of how and why the various books of the Bible were written. How much of the Bible did you write abraxasinas? I perceive that all of the Bible writers were inspired...but that they wrote what was possible and expedient in their particular circumstances. I'm trying to read between the lines...rather than taking the Bible as a set of gold plates inscribed by God...intended for us to take very literally today. This goes for the writings of Ellen White as well.

    The unfortunate part of religious debates is that a lot of people get caught in the crossfire...and lose their faith. One night I overheard a female student crying that the Bible was not the word of God. A pastor authoritatively countered that the Bible was the word of God. The student was weeping.

    I have repeatedly noticed a Christophobia among Christians. They prefer Paul. Some seem to prefer Ellen White over Jesus or Paul. Some prefer Desmond Ford. Is there a Christian Constitution? The U.S. Constitution is simple and concise...yet comprehensive. This is to avoid confusion. Don't we see legion theologies in Christendom? Historically, doctrinal purity has been obtained through dogmatic assertions, persecution, and execution. Wouldn't it be better to do what Jesus told us to do? I sometimes wonder if the next few years will be a contest between Jesus/Constitution and Pope/Vatican. Why can't there be an integration, rather than a stand-off? I'm not fatalistic regarding the future of our world. I'm hoping for a happy ending(or beginning).

    The investigative judgment is an extrapolation from the sanctuary service and the substitutionary atonement. You were correct in stating that Daniel 8:14 and Hebrews 9:12 are not related. It is a non sequiter...is it not? I have found the traditional scriptural arguments to be rather weak. This judgment only makes sense if it is a Satanic requirement, rather than a Divine requirement. Desmond Ford (Was Des a student of yours? Was he a Jesuit?) is correct in saying that God doesn't need an investigative judgment. God already knows them who are His. It is a courtroom scene with Christ and Satan going head to head in a custody case...with the future of the human race hanging in the balance. Satan is the legalist...not God. Is Satan the Old Tesament God? Is the Old Testament God the Creator God of the Universe? Are we really dealing with Jesus Christ vs the Old Testament God? I can almost hear Christ exclaming, "They're mine...I bought them with my life, death, and blood! Give them to me, and then go to hell!" To which Satan shrieks, "They're mine as long as they do what I tell them to do! Do they follow your teachings, and do what you told them to do??!! They don't, do they?! And they won't!! They haven't for 2,000 years, have they??!!"

    I'm not sure where the proper balance point is in all of this. I'm seeking a rock-solid foundation. I do not wish to build on sinking sand...but there will obviously be many false-starts and misunderstandings as I try to find my way...and my voice. I'm tempted to attempt writing about the United States of the Solar System http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15878 with a writing style similar to abraxasinas. I realize that I can't come close to accomplishing such a feat...but I can try...can't I? This is new territory for me. I'm ashamed that I don't know more about that which I am espousing...but I'm even more ashamed that very few of us seem to give a rat's patootie about how this Solar System is run.

    Have our negotiators been duped over and over again...by essentially demonic entities? I wonder. The 1954 Greada Treaty (if it really exists) was a mistake...wasn't it? But I'm sure we had TOP people...who were on top of everything...and had everything under control...RIGHT? Just like we have TOP people...who have everything under control...at this very moment...RIGHT? Don't get me wrong...I am an overly accomodating and gullible person. I'm the kind of person who hates to swat a fly. I don't wish to harm anyone or anything...even demonic entities. But I don't want various aliens, spirits, whoever, or whatever...enslaving and exterminating us...or making life miserable for all of us. I think we have been lied to and manipulated for thousands (or even millions) of years by various entities and beings. We're not as smart as we think we are...when it comes to dealing with these entities and beings. Again...I wish them no harm. But perhaps my 'where there's life...there's hope' bias is what has gotten us into a lot of trouble for a long, long time. Somehow...we need to deal with this thing here and now...and not let it drag on (dragon -get it?!) for thousands and millions of years into the future. We are kept in the dark about Universal History...and regarding who we really are. Yet...we then get chided for being the 'New Kids on the Block' who need to evolve so we can join all of the superior beings throughout the Universe. I'm sick of this BS. Throughout history...right up to this very day...I am not seeing a reasonable and rational approach to Solar System Governance. I'm seeing 'Divide and Conquer'...'Keep Them Confused and Fighting With Each Other'...and 'Keep Them Ignorant and Stupid'. I'm as mad as hell. I've had enough. And I'm not going to take this anymore. Can you feel the love tonight?

    The eschatological paradigms are mostly negative and violent. I envision continuity in perpetuity in Sol. I'm not moving away from this Solar System. This is my home. Sun. Fun. Stay. Play. This is my sand-box...and the playground attendants are poised to expel the bullies from our little paradise. This Solar System is the Theater of the Universe. The implications and ramifications of Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom...in the context of the Constitution of the United States of America and the Bill of Rights...in the context of the United Nations...and applied to the entire Solar System...are enormous. I stand in opposition to the corrupt Powers That Be...both Terrestrial and Extraterrestrial...and demand that the United States of the Solar System be implemented with all deliberate speed...and that a Solar System Exorcism commence immediately. In the words of Moses "Let My People Go!" I perceive that We the People of Earth are Prisoners of War...on a Prison Planet...with Grey Guards...and a Reptilian/Human Hybrid Warden...Taking Orders From a Draconian Reptilian God of This World. This is an intolerable state of affairs...and must not be allowed to stand. I hereby request that the non-corrupt Beings of the Universe assist We the People of Earth for a very brief period of time...as we know it...to implement the reforms outlined throughout this thread devoted to the United States of the Solar System. http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15878 Thanks and Gratitude in Advance.


    Last edited by orthodoxymoron on Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Raven
    Raven


    Posts : 513
    Join date : 2010-04-10
    Age : 55
    Location : The Emerald City

     The 4 Horsemen, the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, 2 Witnesses and 7 Plagues in the Logos Timeline of the Apocalypse    Empty Re: The 4 Horsemen, the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, 2 Witnesses and 7 Plagues in the Logos Timeline of the Apocalypse

    Post  Raven Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:43 am

    orthodoxymoron wrote: In the words of Moses "Let My People Go!" I perceive that We the People of Earth are Prisoners of War...on a Prison Planet...with Grey Guards...and a Reptilian/Human Hybrid Warden...Taking Orders From a Draconian Reptilian God of This World. This is an intolerable state of affairs...and must not be allowed to stand.

    Become Moses and let yourself go Oxy, free your mind. If you can absorb all of these 'evil' beings within your totality, then you will no longer suffer from their torturious wrath. If the Creator contains ALL things and you are a holigraphic shard of that self same creator, then DO you not also contain ALL things within you? The longer you continue to put all these 'demonic things' outside of yourself the harder will be your battle. The battle you face is WITHIN you. Continue on then with your externalization of things, divide and conquer mentality, and this will be what you will continually face, EXTERNALLY. Contain ALL things within you and then your incessant mind circles will weave into ONE cohesive being, INTERNALLY.

    Luke KVJ:
    20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
    21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    GoT:
    3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

    When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."
    Can you imagine the TOTALITY of your being, YOU as a reflection of the ONE creator? Can you see the kingdom is WITHIN you?


    GoT:
    7. Jesus said, "Lucky is the lion that the human will eat, so that the lion becomes human. And foul is the human that the lion will eat, and the lion still will become human."

    Christ is the Lion of Judah, the final and last Eucharist, eating the lion means being able to SEE him inside of you and within ALL things and ALL people, including the so called 'evil' ones who are only yourself not remembering who they are.

    Can you imagine yourself a Christed being Oxy?


    18. The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?" Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is.
    Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

    47. Jesus said, "A person cannot mount two horses or bend two bows.
    And a slave cannot serve two masters, otherwise that slave will honor the one and offend the other.

    Nobody drinks aged wine and immediately wants to drink young wine. Young wine is not poured into old wineskins, or they might break, and aged wine is not poured into a new wineskin, or it might spoil. An old patch is not sewn onto a new garment, since it would create a tear."

    61. Jesus said, "Two will recline on a couch; one will die, one will live." Salome said, "Who are you mister? You have climbed onto my couch and eaten from my table as if you are from someone."

    Jesus said to her, "I am the one who comes from what is whole. I was granted from the things of my Father." "I am your disciple."

    "For this reason I say, if one is whole, one will be filled with light, but if one is divided, one will be filled with darkness."

    66. Jesus said, "Show me the stone that the builders rejected: that is the keystone."

    67. Jesus said, "Those who know all, but are lacking in themselves, are utterly lacking."


    72. A [person said] to him, "Tell my brothers to divide my father's possessions with me." He said to the person, "Mister, who made me a divider?" He turned to his disciples and said to them, "I'm not a divider, am I?"

    77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

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