Assumptions

Spregovori wrote:- our reactions to what others do and say is purely our own problem

So if someone says something or does something....my reaction to it is my problem. There is only me to blame (if need be) and argue with. But since forgiveness is liberating we should just not waste our time with blame, resent, envy...etc

Spregovori wrote:But what to do when someone hits me, someone yells at me, hurts me.... Can i act a "saint" and offer them my hand in friendship? Should i just "let go" and not respond in anger or sadness thus not putting wood on the fire of "negativity"? Should i let them abuse me? Will they stop if i do not fight back, will they be able to see? Or will i see..when i learn?

Spregovori wrote:When in love...what is jealousy if not a need to control? What is possession if not just another expression of greed?
When it "hurts"....does it because we can not control and own?

Spregovori wrote:Can a person love more than just one? Can a person experience love (in all ways) with more than just one?

Spregovori wrote:- allowance of the "free will"

I see a person there...playing with high voltage cables... Should i go and tell it not to? Stop it from hurting itself? Am I interfering by doing that? It has a right to be ignorant...but than again..it might just be curious...exploring the high voltage cables... If i go and stop it....how should i do it...and at the same time....not causing some big drama and or traumatic effect....it could also be unnecessary....in case the cables might only have high voltage but very low current... Since it is the current that kills and not the voltage. The person playing with high voltage cables might also be very well aware of this... So i just watch...observe...it might get fried...than again...it might not...

Spregovori wrote:Or is it case dependent?

Spregovori wrote:I can go..tell others what to do... Does that make me responsible? It was an action.... I went and told someone what to do. Am I now responsible for that action?

Spregovori wrote:Or is each individual responsible for what it does?

Spregovori wrote:Someone goes and tells me no to bite my finger nails anymore. I get so very nervous for not doing it anymore that i simply loose control of my emotional responses. I get very agitated. In the process i divorce my wife, loose my best friend and start drinking alcohol. Who is responsible? The person giving me advice on not biting my nails or me for reacting the way i did? (btw this is a hypothetical example)

Spregovori wrote:I push a small stone...now knowing it will cause an avalanche...the stone is there...it is just so small and simple...i mean...how can it hurt...it can not...right? Or can it?

Spregovori wrote:How about when person itself asks you what to do? Is it than ok to answer?

Spregovori wrote:- necessity of evil

Can a person learn through pain? Each war makes us more advance...in each war there are new...more advanced... ways to kill each other.

I see how fire is like. It burns, it is eating me....the more it eats the less is left of me... So if i step out of the fire...i can now recognize the benefit of not being inside the fire? But for how long do i have to endure it? I see the fire...ok i am in it...it is getting hot....it is getting really unpleasant...ok PAIN... PAIN NOW....i jump out.... I have now recognized how it is to be in fire...can I just go away from it now? Is it my choice? Or should i remain there in pain..waiting...just to be sure i really see and know how it is? Will i leave when i will be ready to do so?

Spregovori wrote:
********************

Not reacting to what others say and or do (but responding as you decide)....not getting involved in what others say and do (unless asked to?)....and recognizing the "fire" at the same time...yet...only trying to get yourself out of it - is this being indifferent?
Is selfishness despite all they teach and emotionally extort....after all...a "positive" thing?

I can "elaborate" further on each point if need be. This is are just some quick "notes".

Anchor wrote:

You are inviting the actions and situations you are faced with into your life.

Anchor wrote:Jealosy seems to me to be a perspective of the ego which isnt getting its own way. If you experience it, it is an amazing opportunity for you to change your responses.

Spregovori wrote:Can a person love more than just one? Can a person experience love (in all ways) with more than just one?

Anchor wrote:
Yes

Anchor wrote:
In such a situation you would follow your heart. Invariably this would motivate you to save life. Take a wider perspective and consider that you were placed in this situation so that you could be tested/taught in someway. Neglecting to act in such a case could be seen as the commission of a killing.

Anchor wrote:
In my opinion, if when you issued the orders you knew that they would be/should be followed without question, then you are ENTIRELY responsible for the order and the outcome. If when you issued the orders, and you knew that there was an option for those so ordered to ignore you or disobey, then you are obviously responsible for the utterance of the order, and the formation and transmission of that thoughtform, but not necessarily responsible for the outcome since it is out of your hands.

Spoken like a true lawyer

Spregovori wrote:Someone goes and tells me no to bite my finger nails anymore. I get so very nervous for not doing it anymore that i simply loose control of my emotional responses. I get very agitated. In the process i divorce my wife, loose my best friend and start drinking alcohol. Who is responsible? The person giving me advice on not biting my nails or me for reacting the way i did? (btw this is a hypothetical example)

Anchor wrote:
You all are :) Dont bite your nails!

Spregovori wrote:I push a small stone...now knowing it will cause an avalanche...the stone is there...it is just so small and simple...i mean...how can it hurt...it can not...right? Or can it?

Anchor wrote:
What you seem to be doing is, in a roundabout way, trying to illustrate the importance of INTENT. It is the intent that conditions the karma associated with the actions you undertake.

Spregovori wrote:How about when person itself asks you what to do? Is it than ok to answer?

Anchor wrote:
Yes, because they have the option to discriminate and decide for themselves if they want to accept or reject your information. However, I am sure there are times when it is wise to consider how much trust this person has in you, because this will shift the balance of responsibility.

Anchor wrote:
I think the answer is yes, but I use the term catalyst (from Ra). Replace "evil"/"pain" in your example with catalyst to get where I am coming from. All catalyst is learning opportunity.

I am not sure hypothetical "drama" is the right way to explore these because essential context is missing.

I am certain that I want to live in a world where each person knowingly takes full responsibility for each thought they have, each word uttered, and every action and deed undertaken. In such a world people would necessarily need to be guided by their own light as they teach others and learn from others..

To my way of seeing, your thinking boils down to the mechanics of Love and Wisdom, and the Actions (intent and followthrough) and resultant Reaction (karma) which are the way our 3D illusion is set up so we can learn and evolve.

It is interesting that you are focussed on YOUR ( your I ) impact on others. I have a feeling that soon this will shift to WE ( ourselves) actions on Ourselves - and when that happens, things should get a bit easier !

Thanks for the thought provoking post.

Carol wrote:Sometimes great words of wisdom are difficult to put into practice.

Spegovori wrote:Interesting although there is a chance i was not
clear enough...it was meant - at the same time - A love to be "given"
without setting limitations of any kind or expecting anything in
return....

Spregovori wrote:Have time? Hit the reply button and contribute.

- our reactions to what others do and say is purely our own problem

So if someone says something or does something....my reaction to it is my problem. There is only me to blame (if need be) and argue with. But since forgiveness is liberating we should just not waste our time with blame, resent, envy...etc

Yes

But what to do when someone hits me, someone yells at me, hurts me.... Can i act a "saint" and offer them my hand in friendship? Should i just "let go" and not respond in anger or sadness thus not putting wood on the fire of "negativity"? Should i let them abuse me? Will they stop if i do not fight back, will they be able to see? Or will i see..when i learn?

One of my children while still a teenager used to regularly burst into heavy anger . I would then try to argue with him and often ended up crying . Until one day I consciously pretended he was frightening me by putting my hands in front of me in self defense . At that moment he stepped out of his anger and took me in his arms telling me " what are you doing ? Know I would never hurt you . He then bursted into tears realizing that he was not himself in such events . He apologized and told me when I am angry like that just don't say a word and leave me alone . Which I did and gradually he overcame his fits.

When in love...what is jealousy if not a need to control? What is possession if not just another expression of greed?
When it "hurts"....does it because we can not control and own?

Jealousy in a relation comes from a sense of insecurity and a lack of trust in self . Also the erroneous belief that we can only find and receive Love from one person which is in contradiction with what Love is : a free boundless flow to all beings .

Can a person love more than just one? Can a person experience love (in all ways) with more than just one ?


Yes love has no bounderies.

- allowance of the "free will"

I see a person there...playing with high voltage cables... Should i go and tell it not to? Stop it from hurting itself? Am I interfering by doing that? It has a right to be ignorant...but than again..it might just be curious...exploring the high voltage cables... If i go and stop it....how should i do it...and at the same time....not causing some big drama and or traumatic effect....it could also be unnecessary....in case the cables might only have high voltage but very low current... Since it is the current that kills and not the voltage. The person playing with high voltage cables might also be very well aware of this... So i just watch...observe...it might get fried...than again...it might not...

It is always wise to see things as they are rather than how we think they are .

Or is it case dependent?

I can go..tell others what to do... Does that make me responsible? It was an action.... I went and told someone what to do. Am I now responsible for that action?

Or is each individual responsible for what it does?

Everyone is responsible for what he does . Our responses to what others do should go in the direction of allowing responsability to manifest self included.

There is a beautifull demonstration of this is in a series of videos on post 61 here : http://www.themistsofavalon.net/inspirations-f34/food-for-soul-t51-60.htm

Someone goes and tells me no to bite my finger nails anymore. I get so very nervous for not doing it anymore that i simply loose control of my emotional responses. I get very agitated. In the process i divorce my wife, loose my best friend and start drinking alcohol. Who is responsible? The person giving me advice on not biting my nails or me for reacting the way i did? (btw this is a hypothetical example)

We are responsible for loosing control of our emotional responses . That does'nt make another person we are dealing with less responsible for their own actions .

I push a small stone...now knowing it will cause an avalanche...the stone is there...it is just so small and simple...i mean...how can it hurt...it can not...right? Or can it?

" There is nobody to blame for anything "
http://www.thetruthsoflife.com/nobodytoblame.html


How about when person itself asks you what to do? Is it than ok to answer?
You'll make him a greater favor to help him find his own answers.

- necessity of evil

Can a person learn through pain? Each war makes us more advance...in each war there are new...more advanced... ways to kill each other.

I see how fire is like. It burns, it is eating me....the more it eats the less is left of me... So if i step out of the fire...i can now recognize the benefit of not being inside the fire? But for how long do i have to endure it? I see the fire...ok i am in it...it is getting hot....it is getting really unpleasant...ok PAIN... PAIN NOW....i jump out.... I have now recognized how it is to be in fire...can I just go away from it now? Is it my choice? Or should i remain there in pain..waiting...just to be sure i really see and know how it is? Will i leave when i will be ready to do so?

It is not from pain that we learn.We may learn something from our attitudes towards pain though .


Thanks Sregovori this is a good exercise :)

Love Always
mudra


********************

Not reacting to what others say and or do (but responding as you decide)....not getting involved in what others say and do (unless asked to?)....and recognizing the "fire" at the same time...yet...only trying to get yourself out of it - is this being indifferent?
Is selfishness despite all they teach and emotionally extort....after all...a "positive" thing?

I can "elaborate" further on each point if need be. This is are just some quick "notes".

hippihillbobbi wrote:
wanting to simplify or reduce all the answers to something basic and fundamental. i.e., understanding of our essential unity (the law of One), acting from one's True Heart (thinking heart/feeling mind), the consistency of unconditional Love as the overriding intention, the "golden rule," (do unto others...), and the necessity for real discernment. Maybe we could add to these the fact that most of us are trying to transcend separation and polarity.

hippihillbobbi wrote:
iow .... if you are me ..... would i want someone to intervene to help me (in my ignorance) not be shocked by the electric power lines??? from the deepest place i'm able to access (True Heart), do i "discern" this is a situation that is truly dangerous or just an opportunity for learning?

hippihillbobbi wrote:
if I am considering acting-out my love for two different lovers at same time ..... would this be a mutual agreement where all of us agree this is what we think we want/need for our "soul-growth?" or is one of my lovers not ready for this sort of demonstration of all-inclusive love? am i tempted to be dishonest about my polyamorous activities with one of my lovers? and is such dishonesty consistent with the "golden rule?" can i in good conscious react in agresssive/mean/disrespectful ways to people who treat me that way ..... if i "remember" that actually we are the same Being?

Spregovori wrote:Have time? Hit the reply button and contribute.

- our reactions to what others do and say is purely our own problem

So if someone says something or does something....my reaction to it is my problem. There is only me to blame (if need be) and argue with. But since forgiveness is liberating we should just not waste our time with blame, resent, envy...etc

Someone saying something and doing something is a vast difference. Yes our reactions are our responsibility entirely. That being said, the "offending" persons actions, and the reactions they receive from that is their responsibility. If they are willing to ellicit a certain reaction from someone then the should be prepared to deal with the consequences, though experience has shown they are for the most part supprised and or offended if you react to their actions.


But what to do when someone hits me, someone yells at me, hurts me.... Can i act a "saint" and offer them my hand in friendship? Should i just "let go" and not respond in anger or sadness thus not putting wood on the fire of "negativity"? Should i let them abuse me? Will they stop if i do not fight back, will they be able to see? Or will i see..when i learn?

If someone hits me with the intent to injure me, they are getting their asses kicked. Being enlightened does not mean being a punching bag for the dullards of the world.

When in love...what is jealousy if not a need to control? What is possession if not just another expression of greed?
When it "hurts"....does it because we can not control and own?

Jealousy is a primal reaction to defend what is "mine" from those who would take it from "me". It is bashed into everyones heads from the time they are children. As we grow and learn, we realize that it is an unnecessary emotion as it takes the infidelity of your partner to warrent the emotional response. If you cannot trust your partner then you don't belong together in an exclusive arraingement.

Can a person love more than just one? Can a person experience love (in all ways) with more than just one?

I personally believe it to be possible, though so many mistake love for other things.

- allowance of the "free will"

I see a person there...playing with high voltage cables... Should i go and tell it not to? Stop it from hurting itself? Am I interfering by doing that? It has a right to be ignorant...but than again..it might just be curious...exploring the high voltage cables... If i go and stop it....how should i do it...and at the same time....not causing some big drama and or traumatic effect....it could also be unnecessary....in case the cables might only have high voltage but very low current... Since it is the current that kills and not the voltage. The person playing with high voltage cables might also be very well aware of this... So i just watch...observe...it might get fried...than again...it might not...

Deciding to inform someone of possible danger is not imposing on free will. If i saw someone about to touch something that might hurt or kill them I would in a not so subtile way inform them of their potential danger. If after that warning they choose to "experience" that danger and injure or kill themselves, I walk away with no remorse, they choose to act and experience, and who am I to deny them that experience.

Or is it case dependent?

I can go..tell others what to do... Does that make me responsible? It was an action.... I went and told someone what to do. Am I now responsible for that action?

When you tell someone to do something, you are taking responsibility to a certain extent for the actions that person does following your orders or instructions.

Or is each individual responsible for what it does?

Ultimately, the individual performing the action has direct responsibility, since they could have choosen to disregard the instructions.

Someone goes and tells me no to bite my finger nails anymore. I get so very nervous for not doing it anymore that i simply loose control of my emotional responses. I get very agitated. In the process i divorce my wife, loose my best friend and start drinking alcohol. Who is responsible? The person giving me advice on not biting my nails or me for reacting the way i did? (btw this is a hypothetical example)

It could be said the person telling you not to bite your nails was the root cause of the downward spiral, but as stated above, it is your responsibility ultimately since you could have choosen to disregard the instructions once your emotions started getting the better of you. To me the person giving that particular advice might feel compelled to appologise for starting you down that path though the advice given was generally innocuous and was probably given in the intent to help you and they may feel no responsibility since it was your "overreaction" that led to the breakdown. It depends on the person and what their level of responsibility encompasses.

I push a small stone...now knowing it will cause an avalanche...the stone is there...it is just so small and simple...i mean...how can it hurt...it can not...right? Or can it?


Its all about intent. If you know the possibility of the outcome and choose to act anyway, it is a more serious offence.

How about when person itself asks you what to do? Is it than ok to answer?

If a person asks for advice, you are free to give it, just as they are free to take your advice or disregard it.

- necessity of evil

Can a person learn through pain? Each war makes us more advance...in each war there are new...more advanced... ways to kill each other.

Pain is a powerful teaching tool. It is direct and leaves a lasting impression. Some lessons seem to be better reinforced through pain, telling a child not to touch the stove since it is "hot" and it will "burn" you never seems to end without the child touching the hot stove and experiencing it for themselves. Then their minds "know" hot and burn where as before touching it they may have had only a vague understanding of it.


I see how fire is like. It burns, it is eating me....the more it eats the less is left of me... So if i step out of the fire...i can now recognize the benefit of not being inside the fire? But for how long do i have to endure it? I see the fire...ok i am in it...it is getting hot....it is getting really unpleasant...ok PAIN... PAIN NOW....i jump out.... I have now recognized how it is to be in fire...can I just go away from it now? Is it my choice? Or should i remain there in pain..waiting...just to be sure i really see and know how it is? Will i leave when i will be ready to do so?


You set your own determination. Some people jump back when they first feel the heat ciomming from the fire and that is enough for them. Others burn themselves to death. You determine what you want to experience and sometimes you choose to go back to something you have experienced before and re-experience it later in life to see if your perception of the thing or event has changed.

********************

Not reacting to what others say and or do (but responding as you decide)....not getting involved in what others say and do (unless asked to?)....and recognizing the "fire" at the same time...yet...only trying to get yourself out of it - is this being indifferent?
Is selfishness despite all they teach and emotionally extort....after all...a "positive" thing?

Something I have tried to pass along to everyone who has ever asked me advice is this. "If you don't take care of yourself, you won't have the strength, means, or oppertunity to help others. You might be able for some time to help others without looking to your own needs, but sooner or later it will catch up to you and you will crash and thus be unable to help anyone. Take care of yourself 1st, and then you will be better equipped to help others"

I can "elaborate" further on each point if need be. This is are just some quick "notes".

mudra wrote:At that moment he stepped out of his anger and took me in his arms telling me " what are you doing ? Know I would never hurt you . He then bursted into tears realizing that he was not himself in such events . He apologized and told me when I am angry like that just don't say a word and leave me alone . Which I did and gradually he overcame his fits.

anomalous cowherd wrote:Since nobody said it yet, I go by the old adage, to assume makes an asp out of you and me. Sometimes it's hard to stay current in reality but assumptions imply we think we know more than we do.
Best to just be in the flow and if the heart mind connection is working properly, one just knows what to do. Or not to do

anomalous cowherd wrote: Sometimes it's hard to stay current in reality but assumptions imply we think we know more than we do.
Best to just be in the flow and if the heart mind connection is working properly, one just knows what to do. Or not to do

Mercuriel wrote:I must defend Myself from the Cold - the Weather - And so and and so I should have said safeguard perhaps but twisting what I AM getting at is not helping.

I EXACTLY said without the Twist - Move away from the Fight - Defend Scenario to the Compromise Scenario If necessary but show the Logic in It...



Man the Energy sure is everywhere for a percieved conflict with any Mesages of Unity lately. Its like Peeps are trying to see where They can weedle an Argument out of Another rather than seeing the Argreement or meeting of Minds attempted.

Owell - Carry on...

Pheryllt wrote:

Someone saying something and doing something is a vast difference. Yes our reactions are our responsibility entirely. That being said, the "offending" persons actions, and the reactions they receive from that is their responsibility. If they are willing to ellicit a certain reaction from someone then the should be prepared to deal with the consequences, though experience has shown they are for the most part supprised and or offended if you react to their actions.

Yes, I agree.

If someone hits me with the intent to injure me, they are getting their asses kicked. Being enlightened does not mean being a punching bag for the dullards of the world.

:) interesting.
I would add here that....being in a "trouble" situation is a learning experience but sustaining it by seeking excuses and not facing it is counter productive on the long run.... How to "solve" it though is another thing....i prefer as peaceful way as possible...

Jealousy is a primal reaction to defend what is "mine" from those who would take it from "me". It is bashed into everyones heads from the time they are children. As we grow and learn, we realize that it is an unnecessary emotion as it takes the infidelity of your partner to warrent the emotional response. If you cannot trust your partner then you don't belong together in an exclusive arraingement.

I personally believe it to be possible, though so many mistake love for other things.

I was just told an opinion yesterday - that being in love is something that "consumes" you...it was said to me...that....all person does in constantly thinks about the other, what tit did, what it said.....i was told you put you heart on the platter and offer it fully..to give yourself entirely....and that this can be done with only one person (since there is only one heart)....so this was an argument saying it can not be done. After that i asked - "so this is being obsessed" And got a "yes" answer in return.... I am still thinking about it...but obsessive in not something i could call unconditional.

You set your own determination. Some people jump back when they first feel the heat ciomming from the fire and that is enough for them. Others burn themselves to death. You determine what you want to experience and sometimes you choose to go back to something you have experienced before and re-experience it later in life to see if your perception of the thing or event has changed.



Something I have tried to pass along to everyone who has ever asked me advice is this. "If you don't take care of yourself, you won't have the strength, means, or oppertunity to help others. You might be able for some time to help others without looking to your own needs, but sooner or later it will catch up to you and you will crash and thus be unable to help anyone. Take care of yourself 1st, and then you will be better equipped to help others"

Yes, fully agree with this. People need to be selfish a little...it is a good thing.

mudra wrote:

One of my children while still a teenager used to regularly burst into heavy anger . I would then try to argue with him and often ended up crying . Until one day I consciously pretended he was frightening me by putting my hands in front of me in self defense . At that moment he stepped out of his anger and took me in his arms telling me " what are you doing ? Know I would never hurt you . He then bursted into tears realizing that he was not himself in such events . He apologized and told me when I am angry like that just don't say a word and leave me alone . Which I did and gradually he overcame his fits.

I can recognize this. Thank you for sharing it with us.

Jealousy in a relation comes from a sense of insecurity and a lack of trust in self . Also the erroneous belief that we can only find and receive Love from one person which is in contradiction with what Love is : a free boundless flow to all beings .

Can a person love more than just one? Can a person experience love (in all ways) with more than just one ?


Yes love has no bounderies.

Yes, "logic" suggests there should be no boundaries.


We are responsible for loosing control of our emotional responses . That does'nt make another person we are dealing with less responsible for their own actions .

:)


It is not from pain that we learn.We may learn something from our attitudes towards pain though .

This is very interesting...the way u put this...makes me think....

Thanks Sregovori this is a good exercise :)

Love Always
mudra

np :)

Anchor wrote:

anomalous cowherd wrote:Since nobody said it yet, I go by the old adage, to assume makes an asp out of you and me. Sometimes it's hard to stay current in reality but assumptions imply we think we know more than we do.
Best to just be in the flow and if the heart mind connection is working properly, one just knows what to do. Or not to do

I think Spegavori is using the word Assumptions in the sense of a Hypothesis. Also it is an assumption/hypothesis under question, so no implications about knowledge.

I agree with your last line, but we are also here to help eachother, so that means sharing some of the stuff you know and if you are lucky, you might get to know some that you didn't.

John..

Spregovori wrote:
- our reactions to what others do and say is purely our own problem


But what to do when someone hits me, someone yells at me, hurts me.... Can i act a "saint" and offer them my hand in friendship? Should i just "let go" and not respond in anger or sadness thus not putting wood on the fire of "negativity"? Should i let them abuse me? Will they stop if i do not fight back, will they be able to see? Or will i see..when i learn?