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    Atlas Shrugged and Ayn Rand's discussion

    Poll

    Have you read Atlas Shrugged?

    [ 4 ]
    Atlas Shrugged and Ayn Rand's discussion Bar_left33%Atlas Shrugged and Ayn Rand's discussion Bar_right [33%] 
    [ 0 ]
    Atlas Shrugged and Ayn Rand's discussion Bar_left0%Atlas Shrugged and Ayn Rand's discussion Bar_right [0%] 
    [ 8 ]
    Atlas Shrugged and Ayn Rand's discussion Bar_left67%Atlas Shrugged and Ayn Rand's discussion Bar_right [67%] 

    Total Votes: 12
    newel
    newel

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    Atlas Shrugged and Ayn Rand's discussion Empty Atlas Shrugged and Ayn Rand's discussion

    Post  newel Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:00 pm

    So have you read this book?

    I'm curious to see how many here have read that book. I started a topic about it back at PA1:
    http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?p=243570

    Many in the conspiracy crowd probably heard of that book from John Todd, self-proclaimed high-level Illuminati defector, who was telling in his speeches (I think mostly to Christian fundamentalists in the USA) that Ayn Rand was Jacob Rothschild's mistress, and that Rothschild told to Ayn Rand about the Illuminati takeover plan and asked her to write a book, which became Atlas Shrugged, as a blueprint of that plan. More can be read here: http://www.henrymakow.com/witches_rule_illuminati_said_j.html and there are youtubes of Todd's speeches. Anyway this is after reading that article that I decided to take a look at Atlas Shrugged and read it. That book is so great. It took me a year to read it and I'm almost done. Only 100 pages to go, in a 1200 pages book. It became quickly irrelevant whether Ayn Rand was Rothschild's mistress or not, because this book speaks the truth. It's sad that a rumor casts this book as evil because it's exactly the opposite. The purpose of this book is to teach humans that they will free themselves from tyranny by exercising the power of their minds. That tyranny is possible only when people are not allowed, or don't want to think. How can such a book be evil? Tood's claim about that book is complete BS and the proof of that is the book itself. If anything, the book is about the defeat of the NWO by depriving it of creative minds, and therefore letting it lead itself to self-destruction. So I didn't really need Ayn Rand's answer about that rumor, but it's nice to get it anyway in this 1979 interview with her. Here is a link right at that moment of the interview:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VzdkXm5Ies&feature=PlayList&p=CD63BCE86EA89F8B&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1#t=4m30s

    And here is the full interview:

    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="https://www.youtube.com/p/CD63BCE86EA89F8B&hl=fr_FR&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="https://www.youtube.com/p/CD63BCE86EA89F8B&hl=fr_FR&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="385" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

    And also the thread I started at PA1 with a great excerpt from Atlas Shrugged:

    Atlas Shrugged (1957) - D'Anconia on what money really is


    Popularity of the book: "According to a 1991 survey by the Library of Congress
    and the Book of the Month Club, Atlas Shrugged was second to the Bible
    as the book that made most difference in American readers' lives. Modern
    Library's 1998 three-month online poll of the 100 best novels of the
    20th century found Atlas rated #1 although it was not included on the
    list chosen by the Modern Library panel of authors and scholars. The
    list was formed on 217,520 votes cast."


    Alleged inspiration for the book: "[Illuminati] take-over plan involved economic breakdown
    where even Illuminati companies went broke. They have the means to
    survive such a catastrophe. He [Todd] says Phillip de Rothschild gave
    the plan to his mistress Ayn Rand for her novel Atlas Shrugged."



    Excerpt from Atlas Shrugged (1957) by Ayn Rand

    [...]

    Standing unnoticed on the edge of the group, Rearden heard a woman, who
    had large diamond earrings and a flabby, nervous face, ask tensely,
    "Senior d'Anconia, what do you think is going to happen to the world?"

    "Just exactly what it deserves,"

    "Oh, how cruel!"

    "Don't you believe in the operation of the moral law, madame?" Francisco
    asked gravely. "I do."

    Rearden heard Bertram Scudder, outside the group, say to a girl who made
    some sound of indignation, "Don't let him disturb you. You know, money
    is the root of all evil—and he's the typical product of money."

    Rearden did not think that Francisco could have heard it, but he saw
    Francisco turning to them with a gravely courteous smile.

    "So you think that money is the root of all evil?" said Francisco
    d'Anconia. "Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a
    tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and
    men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle
    that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give
    value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your
    product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force.
    Money is made possible only by the men who produce.

    Is this what you consider evil?

    "When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only on the
    conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of
    others. It is not the moochers or the looters who give value to money.
    Not an ocean of tears nor all the guns in the world can transform those
    pieces of paper in your wallet into the bread you will need to survive
    tomorrow. Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a
    token of honor—your claim upon the energy of the men who produce. Your
    wallet is your statement of hope that somewhere in the world around you
    there are men who will not default on that moral principle which is the
    root of money. Is this what you consider evil?

    "Have you ever looked for the root of production? Take a look at an
    electric generator and dare tell yourself that it was created by the
    muscular effort of unthinking brutes. Try to grow a seed of wheat
    without the knowledge left to you by men who had to discover it for the
    first time. Try to obtain your food by means of nothing but physical
    motions—and you'll learn that man's mind is the root of all the goods
    produced and of all the wealth that has ever existed on earth.

    "But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the
    weak? What strength do you mean? It is not the strength of guns or
    muscles. Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. Then is money
    made by the man who invents a motor at the expense of those who did not
    invent it? Is money made by the intelligent at the expense of the
    fools? By the able at the expense of the incompetent? By the ambitious
    at the expense of the lazy? Money is made—before it can be looted or
    mooched—made by the effort of every honest man, each to the extent of
    his ability. An honest man is one who knows that he can't consume more
    than he has produced.

    "To trade by means of money is the code of the men of good will.

    Money rests on the axiom that every man is the owner of his mind and his
    effort. Money allows no power to prescribe the value of your effort
    except the voluntary choice of the man who is willing to trade you his
    effort in return. Money permits you to obtain for your goods and your
    labor that which they are worth to the men who buy them, but no more.
    Money permits no deals except those to mutual benefit by the unforced
    judgment of the traders. Money demands of you the recognition that men
    must work for their own benefit, not for their own injury, for their
    gain, not their loss—the recognition that they are not beasts of burden,
    born to carry the weight of your misery—that you must offer them
    values, not wounds—that the common bond among men is not the exchange of
    suffering, but the exchange of goods.

    Money demands that you sell, not your weakness to men's stupidity, but
    your talent to their reason; it demands that you buy, not the shoddiest
    they offer, but the best that your money can find. And when men live by
    trade—with reason, not force, as their final arbiter—it is the best
    product that wins, the best performance, the man of best judgment and
    highest ability—and the degree of a man's productiveness is the degree
    of his reward. This is the code of existence whose tool and symbol is
    money. Is this what you consider evil?

    "But money is only a tool. It will take you wherever you wish, but it
    will not replace you as the driver. It will give you the means for the
    satisfaction of your desires, but it will not provide you with desires.

    Money is the scourge of the men who attempt to reverse the law of
    causality—the men who seek to replace the mind by seizing the products
    of the mind.

    "Money will not purchase happiness for the man who has no concept of
    what he wants: money will not give him a code of values, if he's evaded
    the knowledge of what to value, and it will not provide him with a
    purpose, if he's evaded the choke of what to seek. Money will not buy
    intelligence for the fool, or admiration for the coward, or respect for
    the incompetent. The man who attempts to purchase the brains of his
    superiors to serve him, with his money replacing his judgment, ends up
    by becoming the victim of his inferiors. The men of intelligence desert
    him, but the cheats and the frauds come flocking to him, drawn by a law
    which he has not discovered: that no man may be smaller than his money.
    Is this the reason why you call it evil?

    "Only the man who does not need it, is fit to inherit wealth—the man who
    would make his own fortune no matter where he started. If an heir is
    equal to his money, it serves him; if not, it destroys him.

    But you look on and you cry that money corrupted him. Did it? Or did he
    corrupt his money? Do not envy a worthless heir; his wealth is not yours
    and you would have done no better with it. Do not think that it should
    have been distributed among you; loading the world with fifty parasites
    instead of one, would not bring back the dead virtue which was the
    fortune. Money is a living power that dies without its root. Money will
    not serve the mind that cannot match it. Is this the reason why you call
    it evil?

    "Money is your means of survival. The verdict you pronounce upon the
    source of your livelihood is the verdict you pronounce upon your life.
    If the source is corrupt, you have damned your own existence. Did you
    get your money by fraud? By pandering to men's vices or men's stupidity?
    By catering to fools, in the hope of getting more than your ability
    deserves? By lowering your standards? By doing work you despise for
    purchasers you scorn? If so, then your money will not give you a
    moment's or a penny's worth of joy. Then all the things you buy will
    become, not a tribute to you, but a reproach; not an achievement, but a
    reminder of shame. Then you'll scream that money is evil. Evil, because
    it would not pinch-hit for your self-respect? Evil, because it would not
    let you enjoy your depravity? Is this the root of your hatred of money?

    "Money will always remain an effect and refuse to replace you as the
    cause. Money is the product of virtue, but it will not give you virtue
    and it will not redeem your vices. Money will not give you the unearned,
    neither in matter nor in spirit. Is this the root of your hatred of
    money?

    "Or did you say it's the love of money that's the root of all evil?

    To love a thing is to know and love its nature. To love money is to know
    and love the fact that money is the creation of the best power within
    you, and your passkey to trade your effort for the effort of the best
    among men. It's the person who would sell his soul for a nickel, who is
    loudest in proclaiming his hatred of money—and he has good reason to
    hate it. The lovers of money are willing to work for it.

    They know they are able to deserve it.

    "Let me give you a tip on a clue to men's characters: the man who damns
    money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned
    it.

    "Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil.

    That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as
    men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another their
    only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun.

    "But money demands of you the highest virtues, if you wish to make it or
    to keep it. Men who have no courage, pride or self-esteem, men who have
    no moral sense of their right to their money and are not willing to
    defend it as they defend their life, men who apologize for being
    rich—will not remain rich for long. They are the natural bait for the
    swarms of looters that stay under rocks for centuries, but come crawling
    out at the first smell of a man who begs to be forgiven for the guilt
    of owning wealth. They will hasten to relieve him of the guilt and of
    his life, as he deserves.

    "Then you will see the rise of the men of the double standard—the men
    who live by force, yet count on those who live by trade to create the
    value of their looted money—the men who are the hitchhikers of virtue.
    In a moral society, these are the criminals, and the statutes are
    written to protect you against them. But when a society establishes
    criminals-by-right and looters-by-law—men who use force to seize the
    wealth of disarmed victims—then money becomes its creators' avenger.

    Such looters believe it safe to rob defenseless men, once they've passed
    a law to disarm them. But their loot becomes the magnet for other
    looters, who get it from them as they got it. Then the race goes, not to
    the ablest at production, but to those most ruthless at brutality. When
    force is the standard, the murderer wins over the pickpocket. And then
    that society vanishes, in a spread of ruins and slaughter.

    "Do you wish to know whether that day is coming? Watch money.

    Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading
    is done, not by consent, but by compulsion—when you see that in order to
    produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce
    nothing—when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in
    goods, but in favors—when you see that men get richer by graft and by
    pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but
    protect them against you—when you see corruption being rewarded and
    honesty becoming a self-sacrifice—you may know that your society is
    doomed. Money is so noble a medium that it does not compete with guns
    and it does not make terms with brutality.

    It will not permit a country to survive as half-property, half-loot.

    "Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money,
    for money is men's protection and the base of a moral existence.
    Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of
    paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the
    arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values. Gold was an objective
    value, an equivalent of wealth produced. Paper is a mortgage on wealth
    that does not exist, backed by a gun aimed at those who are expected to
    "produce it. Paper is a check drawn by legal looters upon an account
    which is not theirs: upon the virtue of the victims. Watch for the day
    when it bounces, marked: 'Account overdrawn.'

    "When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to
    remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for
    the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to
    produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask,
    'Who is destroying the world?' You are.

    "You stand in the midst of the greatest achievements of the greatest
    productive civilization and you wonder why it's crumbling around you,
    while you're damning its life-blood—-money. You look upon money as the
    savages did before you, and you wonder why the jungle is creeping back
    to the edge of your cities. Throughout men's history, money was always
    seized by looters of one brand or another, whose names changed, but
    whose method remained the same: to seize wealth by force and to keep the
    producers bound, demeaned, defamed, deprived of honor. That phrase
    about the evil of money, which you mouth with such righteous
    recklessness, comes from a time when wealth was produced by the labor of
    slaves—slaves who repeated the motions once discovered by somebody's
    mind and left unimproved for centuries. So long as production was ruled
    by force, and wealth was obtained by conquest, there was little to
    conquer. Yet through all the centuries of stagnation and starvation, men
    exalted the looters, as aristocrats of the sword, as aristocrats of
    birth, as aristocrats of the bureau, and despised the producers, as
    slaves, as traders, as shopkeepers—as industrialists.

    "To the glory of mankind, there was, for the first and only time in
    history, a country of money—and I have no higher, more reverent tribute
    to pay to America, for this means: a country of reason, justice,
    freedom, production, achievement. For the first time, man's mind and
    money were set free, and there were no fortunes-by-conquest, but only
    fortunes-by-work, and instead of swordsmen and slaves, there appeared
    the real maker of wealth, the greatest worker, the highest type of human
    being—the self-made man—the American industrialist.

    "If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would
    choose—because it contains all the others—the fact that they were the
    people who created the phrase 'to make money.’ No other language or
    nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of
    wealth as a static quantity—to be seized, begged, inherited, shared,
    looted or obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand
    that wealth has to be created. The words 'to make money' hold the
    essence of human morality.

    "Yet these were the words for which Americans were denounced by the
    rotted cultures of the looters' continents. Now the looters' credo has
    brought you to regard your proudest achievements as a hallmark of shame,
    your prosperity as guilt, your greatest men, the industrialists, as
    blackguards, and your magnificent factories as the product and property
    of muscular labor, the labor of whip-driven slaves, like the pyramids of
    Egypt. The rotter who simpers that he sees no difference between the
    power of the dollar and the power of the whip, ought to learn the
    difference on his own hide—as, I think, he will.

    "Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you
    ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which
    men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood,
    whips and guns—or dollars. Take your choice—there is no other—and your
    time is running out."

    Francisco had not glanced at Rearden once while speaking; but the moment
    he finished, his eyes went straight to Rearden's face. Rearden stood
    motionless, seeing nothing but Francisco d'Anconia across the moving
    figures and angry voices between them.

    Mercuriel
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    Atlas Shrugged and Ayn Rand's discussion Empty Re: Atlas Shrugged and Ayn Rand's discussion

    Post  Mercuriel Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:06 am

    It is simply an Awesome Book...

    Its almost like an Airing of the Illuminati's Conscience relative to the Truth about what is going on concerning Their Great Work. Its Fiction of course but then They always layer enough of the Puzzle Pieces within Fiction so as to satisfy Cosmic Law allowing Them to say that They gave Us the Pieces - And that We just didn't figure It out in time. Its how They've continued to have Playthings (Us) over the Aeons...

    Simply put - Its an excellent Dot connector and Highly Illuminating as to Motive and Modus Operandi...

    I intend to Offer this Book as a DL'able PDF when The new Portal is up'n'running...

    Wink


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    hippihillbobbi
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    Atlas Shrugged and Ayn Rand's discussion Empty Re: Atlas Shrugged and Ayn Rand's discussion

    Post  hippihillbobbi Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:04 pm

    Metaw & Mercuriel--

    I HAVEN'T read any of Ayn Rand, and i know that is a GLARING hole for a supposedly well-read person (which i like to consider myself). i know that she has ENORMOUS respect in certain quarters, but the "word on the street" re: her philosophy has always turned-me-off. and the long excerpt you shared Metaw (thank you for this) did NOTHING to persuade me that the "word on the street" was a superficial assessment. Admittedly, it IS NOT FAIR to judge someone's philosophy by 2nd-hand opinions and brief excerpts of her novels, so i will reserve any ultimate judgement. (also in honor of my respect for the 2 of you, my brothers.) but as i read that excerpt from Atlas Shrugged, my thoughts were: 1) GOOD writing; and 2) this is an excellent apology for the OLD paradigm!

    Now i'll go back & watch the Donahue video i should already have watched (my bad!), and then i think i'll log-onto Amazon & try to find a good used copy of Atlas Shrugged so i can have an opinion based on actually READING the novel, not merely on hearsay or extracts. THANKS, Metaw, for bringing up this FASCINATING topic! Atlas Shrugged and Ayn Rand's discussion 83084

    love,
    hippibobbi
    newel
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    Atlas Shrugged and Ayn Rand's discussion Empty Re: Atlas Shrugged and Ayn Rand's discussion

    Post  newel Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:37 pm

    I don't agree with you Mercuriel. Ayn Rand is one of the wisest writer I have ever read. Her book is not about satisfying Cosmic Law by giving puzzle pieces about a plan for world domination. That is the false rumor. I can see where this rumor is coming from because the book was written in 1957 and everything that is happening in the world today seems to come right out of Atlas Shrugged. However there is no mystery if you read the book because what makes this book so great to me is not the correctly foreseen moral degradation of civilization in a sequence of fictional events so close to what's really happening since its writing, the events on which John Tood would like you to focus, as much as the crystal clear philosophical explanation of why it was bound to happen.

    After reading this book, a lot of conspiracy theories lost their credibility to me, because I simply didn't need them anymore to undertsand why people are so corrupted and evil and how it can be allowed to go that far. Actually, the concept of evil is not an explanation of anything. If one can't undertsand why people act some way, one would be much better off admitting that he doesn't understand and keep trying, rather than considering evil as an explanation, therefore surrendering to it, accepting that he can't understand.

    What Atlas Shrugged did to me is explain evil in an intelligible manner, by showing me how close to human nature, and therefore to all of us, it has always been and always will be. Once one understands that, one is free to start doing something about it, based on empirical knowledge. In other words, "as above so below" applies also to evil and morality.
    hippihillbobbi
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    Post  hippihillbobbi Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:15 pm

    My assessment AFTER having watched the 50 or so minute Donahue interview but BEFORE reading any of Ms. Rand's works:

    She has a brilliant mind. Her logic is very compelling. Within the parameters with which she views reality ..... her stance seems to make lots of sense. She arbitrarily LIMITS the extent of legitimate argument to "provable" axioms, and then seems to deny a priori the "proof" of facts with which she disagrees philosophically . She recognizes the global market is not truly "free," and so blames government interference (collusion with corporations) for all the concomitant evils currently springing from it. but is there any evidence in the modern era of a truly "free market" that works the way she envisions???

    imo, Ms. Rand makes the fundamental mistake of IDOLIZING reason/the intellect as well as the THEORY of a "free market." in my philosophy/world-view ..... Reason is Not the pinnacle of humanity's gifts ..... and those for whom it is must inevitably discount and/or totally deny humanity's Spiritual gifts ..... intuition, compassion, etc., which for me DO represent the pinnacle of human abilities.

    with much love,
    hhb
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    Post  Mercuriel Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:30 pm

    I don't agree with you Mercuriel. Ayn Rand is one of the wisest writer I have ever read. Her book is not about satisfying Cosmic Law by giving puzzle pieces about a plan for world domination. That is the false rumor. I can see where this rumor is coming from because the book was written in 1957 and everything that is happening in the world today seems to come right out of Atlas Shrugged.

    No - I didn't say that it was. Only that It was a result and perhaps albeit - Unknown to Her. I mean Jacob Rothschild - C'mon - And its obvious that She is an expert in Hegelian Dialect by simply writing the Book. She saw It - Lived close to It - And knew it. That She was a good Woman is not where I was going. I am not besmirching Her - I am complimenting Her for giving Us enough of how They think in the Book...

    Wink

    Simply put - Its My take on It. You know just as well as I do that They have multiple Agendas all tied into one or another Program(s). Atlas Shrugged is one of the Books I've read that has helped Me to see between the Lines - To see the Dots in minutae and to seek the Threads that connect Them.

    The more a Program does to further the Agenda(s) for the Great Work - The more valuable the Program.

    Ayn was/is part of that Program either knowingly or not but that it satisfies Cosmic Law is a side benefit and was not the direction of the Work. That was not My intended point. Just that by allowing Us the Pieces - Whatever way They come to Us - It DOES satisfy Cosmic Law...

    I'd agree that it is a good treatise on the Evil(s) that resides in Mankind's Heart - Just at the Door and the need for Integration relative to It. I just wrote nothing about My take on It from that perspective is all.

    I would think with this added perspective - That You can now perceive what I was saying - Yes ?

    Wink


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    Post  Mercuriel Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:47 pm

    And another thing to be said here that We can gain just as much from the Enemy as We can from Our Friend - Just differently is all. Sometimes I can be Cryptic and I know It. My first Post in this Thread was exactly that. My apologies...

    Information is neither Negative nor Positive. Its what is done with the Information that is the Crux. This Book was great Information and that is how I used It. Where it came from was not important but that It resonated, was...

    I actually thought nothing of Her relations other than It would be good Info and very useful at that - Or is that not the Integrated way to think of It ?

    Wink


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    Post  newel Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:35 pm

    I have to admit I'm reaching here the limits of my ability to express myself in English, which is not my first language. It takes me a lot of time to write these messages.

    hippihillbobbi, I would say you're quite correct in your assessment. I am not a well-read person, but Ayn Rand was able to sustain my interest for 1200 pages. And I know why. I consider intelligence and morality to be the pinnacle of human abilities. I did at 5 years old and I still do today.

    Mercuriel, I got you. I have no idea if it's true that Ayn Rand was Jacob Rothschild's mistress. I don't know that much about the House of Rothschild either. I have to take at face value whatever is said about them. Like with you, the book resonated with me right from the start, so I just put aside that alleged relation of the author with the much demonized Rothschilds, at least until I finish the book.
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    Post  mudra Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:57 am

    I have'nt read the book but I understand her take on money .. that it represents labor . That money is a way for men to relate to other men by exchanging the product of their labor . And that wealth therefore should reflect the amount of labor one has put into something .
    It is also presupposed here that the products of labor are genuine exchangable ones and not destructive ones. That is sound enough.
    However to say that the greatest men are the industrialists is something I can't relate to . Maybe it's a truth in the context of the book but certainly not an absolute one .

    The industrial revolution driven by man's control over nature has brought to the average man of modern society a more confortable way of living. However the stress and destruction this has put on mother Earth in the span of 100 years is without precedent in human history .The working conditions during the times of the industrial revolution were hard and risky for men, women and children and just another form of slavery .

    Industries such as the cotton trade were particularly hard for workers to endure long hours of labour. The nature of the work being done meant that the workplace had to be very hot, steam engines contributing further to the heat in this and other industries. Machinery was not always fenced off and workers would be exposed to the moving parts of the machines whilst they worked. Children were often employed to move between these dangerous machines as they were small enough to fit between tightly packed machinery. This led to them being placed in a great deal of danger and mortality (death rates) were quite high in factories. Added to the dangers of the workplace also consider the impact of the hours worked. It was quite common for workers to work 12 hours or more a day, in the hot and physically exhausting work places. Exhaustion naturally leads to the worker becoming sluggish (slow), which again makes the workplace more dangerous.

    Industrialization has brought us fertilizers , processed food, refined food that over time has lost all of their inherent sources of vitamins and minerals . The construction of large cities emerged cutting more and more men 's roots with nature bringing hence it's respect for her to the bottom. . How many do still know today how some fruits and vegetables look like in their natural environment ?
    As well documented by this article : http://bmb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/69/1/75
    the industrial revolution at it's onset has had severe impacts on human health and not in a positive sense as generally presumed .
    Big pharma arised to remedy this and prolongate lifespans . This brought artificially boosted life but can one name this health ?

    Of course for every " bad " picture brought about by industrialization I can find an equivalent good one .
    I am not against industry nor the idea of " making money " although the very expression " making money " is narrow sighted imo .
    My point is industrialization without wisdom is a destructive tool of a far reaching scale.
    The free market based on individual self interest will never be ethical unless the bigger picture of the welfare of all men and Earth is taken into view.
    And then it would'nt be about " making money " but rather " making viable contributions" to the whole.

    Love Always
    mudra



    newel
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    Post  newel Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:23 pm

    Mudra, I'll try and explain what is the good industrialist in Ayn Rand's terminology. Actually there are no good or bad industrialists according to her. All industrialists are good and those you would call bad are just looters pretending to be industrialists. An industrialist doesn't have to run an industry to be one, but it happens to be the natural outcome for his life's achievement.

    First of all, the book has been written in 1957. So although I didn't look for it while reading, it's probable that Ayn Rand took into account some of your arguments, specifically the ones known in 1957, like the working conditions during the times of the industrial revolution. Those related to more recent concerns like global pollution and food quality are probably not addressed directly in the book. But it's not necessary to go through them one by one, because I'll simply use an analogy to show you what is the man Ayn Rand is describing when she uses the word industrialist.

    If 100 people were to be dropped on a desert island, the industrialist is the guy who would not only know what to do to survive on a long term basis, but he would also have the leadership to inspire everyone and to organize the work of everyone into a common purpose for a better quality of life. And most of all, he would also have the creativity to constantly improve the nature and quality of that organized survival team work. Finally, he would be more than happy to compete and trade with others who have the same qualities and goals. In other words, the 1957 industrialist according to Ayn Rand is essentially the type of persons who would succeed today in creating radiant communities around the world. They are not running industries anymore like in 1957. Actually, her book is about the last ones of them still free to do it, and still willing to do it, under the terms of the rampant american fascism she denounces.

    So basically, her industrialist is a philosopher who considers productive achievement as his noblest activity:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_%28Ayn_Rand%29#Philosophy

    Ayn Rand characterized Objectivism as "a philosophy for living on earth", grounded in reality, and aimed at defining man's nature and the nature of the world in which he lives.

    "My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."

    I have no doubt in my mind that if Ayn Rand was living today, she would be a prominent leading figure into the creation of radiant communities around the world. I'm saying it because of what I've read from her so far. To me, it can only further the cause of the controllers that people into community building are kept away from thinkers like Ayn Rand.
    mudra
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    Post  mudra Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:46 pm

    Thank you for this explanation metaw.
    Under that light I understand better Ayn Rand's point and yours.
    That gives of course quite a different perspective that I can relate to.
    You read the book so you know what you are talking about .
    I appreciate you sharing it with us .
    We definitely need these bright and dedicate builders of radiant zones on Earth today.

    Love from me
    mudra
    newel
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    Post  newel Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:01 pm

    Ayn Rand: A Sense of Life

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WZqUVQNles&playnext=1&list=PL18716DB03E38B890

    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="https://www.youtube.com/p/18716DB03E38B890?hl=en_US&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="https://www.youtube.com/p/18716DB03E38B890?hl=en_US&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="385" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>
    sjkted
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    Post  sjkted Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:51 pm

    I read Atlas Shrugged when I was 13 and taking the bus to school. It was a big formative influence on some of my thought as a young adult. In retrospect, I think Ayn was mistaken that John Galt wasn't the big industrialist who owns a mega company and decided to quit -- it's anyone who is contributing their labor towards advancing the human race and helping people.

    One piece of trivia most people don't know is that Alan Greenspan was a Rand disciple while she was writing these novels. He was also a gold bug who wrote some pretty good pro-gold and anti-fiat money essays.

    --sjkted
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    Post  sjkted Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:56 pm


    I have no doubt in my mind that if Ayn Rand was living today, she would be a prominent leading figure into the creation of radiant communities around the world. I'm saying it because of what I've read from her so far. To me, it can only further the cause of the controllers that people into community building are kept away from thinkers like Ayn Rand.

    Imo, she was kind of a mixed bag. On one hand, she was a brilliant intellectual who had very well thought out presentations and arguments. Unlike many people who try to create a utopia, she truly understood liberty and how it is a basic human right and something we need as much as air, water, food and shelter.

    OTOH, she understood nothing about emotion and saw it as kind of a lower form of expression. She did what she could to suppress her own emotions as well as those of her followers, with the exception of spontaneous outbursts of passion, of which she seems quite fond to unravel in her books.

    --sjkted
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    Atlas Shrugged and Ayn Rand's discussion Empty WE Shrug

    Post  SiriArc Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:52 am

    #6

    http://nobledreams.earhissingtinnitus.com/viewtopic.php?pid=16315#p16315

    Dual Centabalitos:

    Ayn Rand was HUGE in This Feed-Back-Loop (Cybernetically Speaking).

    Early ‘80s, read Everything She'd Written,

    Including subscribing to The Objectivist Newsletter.

    Her Emphasis On the Individual and Genuine Achievement,

    ooooooopposed to the general, lowest-common-denominator / consensus

    Which these days might be termed: the sheeple's podville.

    In that same TimeFrame, the Concepts of Quantum Mechanics began making “InRoads” to Awareness.

    Then, ‘85, the Doors Blew Off And Seth Walked In.

    Considering Ayn from that point to the Current one:

    Ayn was a Left Brain Genius !!!

    But As The T And The P just noted,

    [And Here, Now

    MistSjkted's #14]

    This was at the “expense” of

    The Intuitive / Heart / Mind Synergy.
    newel
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    Post  newel Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:51 pm

    Thanks to everyone who answered the poll.

    I don't think the movie will be that good, but I won't miss it anyway. In theaters April 15th:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W07bFa4TzM
    <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/6W07bFa4TzM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    Stefan Molyneux interviews Harmon Kaslow, a producer of the new movie 'Atlas Shrugged' Part 1:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5epZ_Ui9NhI
    mudra
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    Post  mudra Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:24 pm

    Capitalism and Atlas Shrugged (Part 1 of 12)

    Lecture by Yaron Brook, President of the Ayn Rand Institute, on Atlas Shrugged, Capitalism, and the economic climate today.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vkecgvWySg&list=HL1329340937


    Love Always
    mudra
    newel
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    Post  newel Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:38 pm

    metaw3 wrote:Thanks to everyone who answered the poll.

    I don't think the movie will be that good, but I won't miss it anyway. In theaters April 15th:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W07bFa4TzM

    Stefan Molyneux interviews Harmon Kaslow, a producer of the new movie 'Atlas Shrugged' Part 1:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5epZ_Ui9NhI

    I just watched it. If you've read the book, you'll have a good time.

      Current date/time is Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:52 am