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    Spregovori
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    Post  Spregovori Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:27 am

    Have time? Hit the reply button and contribute.

    - our reactions to what others do and say is purely our own problem

    So if someone says something or does something....my reaction to it is my problem. There is only me to blame (if need be) and argue with. But since forgiveness is liberating we should just not waste our time with blame, resent, envy...etc

    But what to do when someone hits me, someone yells at me, hurts me.... Can i act a "saint" and offer them my hand in friendship? Should i just "let go" and not respond in anger or sadness thus not putting wood on the fire of "negativity"? Should i let them abuse me? Will they stop if i do not fight back, will they be able to see? Or will i see..when i learn?

    When in love...what is jealousy if not a need to control? What is possession if not just another expression of greed?
    When it "hurts"....does it because we can not control and own?

    Can a person love more than just one? Can a person experience love (in all ways) with more than just one?

    - allowance of the "free will"

    I see a person there...playing with high voltage cables... Should i go and tell it not to? Stop it from hurting itself? Am I interfering by doing that? It has a right to be ignorant...but than again..it might just be curious...exploring the high voltage cables... If i go and stop it....how should i do it...and at the same time....not causing some big drama and or traumatic effect....it could also be unnecessary....in case the cables might only have high voltage but very low current... Since it is the current that kills and not the voltage. The person playing with high voltage cables might also be very well aware of this... So i just watch...observe...it might get fried...than again...it might not...

    Or is it case dependent?

    I can go..tell others what to do... Does that make me responsible? It was an action.... I went and told someone what to do. Am I now responsible for that action?

    Or is each individual responsible for what it does?

    Someone goes and tells me no to bite my finger nails anymore. I get so very nervous for not doing it anymore that i simply loose control of my emotional responses. I get very agitated. In the process i divorce my wife, loose my best friend and start drinking alcohol. Who is responsible? The person giving me advice on not biting my nails or me for reacting the way i did? (btw this is a hypothetical example)

    I push a small stone...now knowing it will cause an avalanche...the stone is there...it is just so small and simple...i mean...how can it hurt...it can not...right? Or can it?

    How about when person itself asks you what to do? Is it than ok to answer?

    - necessity of evil

    Can a person learn through pain? Each war makes us more advance...in each war there are new...more advanced... ways to kill each other.

    I see how fire is like. It burns, it is eating me....the more it eats the less is left of me... So if i step out of the fire...i can now recognize the benefit of not being inside the fire? But for how long do i have to endure it? I see the fire...ok i am in it...it is getting hot....it is getting really unpleasant...ok PAIN... PAIN NOW....i jump out.... I have now recognized how it is to be in fire...can I just go away from it now? Is it my choice? Or should i remain there in pain..waiting...just to be sure i really see and know how it is? Will i leave when i will be ready to do so?


    ********************

    Not reacting to what others say and or do (but responding as you decide)....not getting involved in what others say and do (unless asked to?)....and recognizing the "fire" at the same time...yet...only trying to get yourself out of it - is this being indifferent?
    Is selfishness despite all they teach and emotionally extort....after all...a "positive" thing?

    I can "elaborate" further on each point if need be. This is are just some quick "notes".
    Anchor
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    Post  Anchor Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:40 am

    Spregovori wrote:- our reactions to what others do and say is purely our own problem

    So if someone says something or does something....my reaction to it is my problem. There is only me to blame (if need be) and argue with. But since forgiveness is liberating we should just not waste our time with blame, resent, envy...etc

    Yes

    Spregovori wrote:But what to do when someone hits me, someone yells at me, hurts me.... Can i act a "saint" and offer them my hand in friendship? Should i just "let go" and not respond in anger or sadness thus not putting wood on the fire of "negativity"? Should i let them abuse me? Will they stop if i do not fight back, will they be able to see? Or will i see..when i learn?

    You are inviting the actions and situations you are faced with into your life.

    Spregovori wrote:When in love...what is jealousy if not a need to control? What is possession if not just another expression of greed?
    When it "hurts"....does it because we can not control and own?

    Jealosy seems to me to be a perspective of the ego which isnt getting its own way. If you experience it, it is an amazing opportunity for you to change your responses.

    Spregovori wrote:Can a person love more than just one? Can a person experience love (in all ways) with more than just one?

    Yes

    Spregovori wrote:- allowance of the "free will"

    I see a person there...playing with high voltage cables... Should i go and tell it not to? Stop it from hurting itself? Am I interfering by doing that? It has a right to be ignorant...but than again..it might just be curious...exploring the high voltage cables... If i go and stop it....how should i do it...and at the same time....not causing some big drama and or traumatic effect....it could also be unnecessary....in case the cables might only have high voltage but very low current... Since it is the current that kills and not the voltage. The person playing with high voltage cables might also be very well aware of this... So i just watch...observe...it might get fried...than again...it might not...

    In such a situation you would follow your heart. Invariably this would motivate you to save life. Take a wider perspective and consider that you were placed in this situation so that you could be tested/taught in someway. Neglecting to act in such a case could be seen as the commission of a killing.

    Spregovori wrote:Or is it case dependent?

    Of course. But the reality is just that, your reality. Different in subtle ways for each person.


    Spregovori wrote:I can go..tell others what to do... Does that make me responsible? It was an action.... I went and told someone what to do. Am I now responsible for that action?

    In my opinion, if when you issued the orders you knew that they would be/should be followed without question, then you are ENTIRELY responsible for the order and the outcome. If when you issued the orders, and you knew that there was an option for those so ordered to ignore you or disobey, then you are obviously responsible for the utterance of the order, and the formation and transmission of that thoughtform, but not necessarily responsible for the outcome since it is out of your hands.


    Spregovori wrote:Or is each individual responsible for what it does?


    Always.


    Spregovori wrote:Someone goes and tells me no to bite my finger nails anymore. I get so very nervous for not doing it anymore that i simply loose control of my emotional responses. I get very agitated. In the process i divorce my wife, loose my best friend and start drinking alcohol. Who is responsible? The person giving me advice on not biting my nails or me for reacting the way i did? (btw this is a hypothetical example)

    You all are :) Dont bite your nails!


    Spregovori wrote:I push a small stone...now knowing it will cause an avalanche...the stone is there...it is just so small and simple...i mean...how can it hurt...it can not...right? Or can it?

    What you seem to be doing is, in a roundabout way, trying to illustrate the importance of INTENT. It is the intent that conditions the karma associated with the actions you undertake.

    Spregovori wrote:How about when person itself asks you what to do? Is it than ok to answer?

    Yes, because they have the option to discriminate and decide for themselves if they want to accept or reject your information. However, I am sure there are times when it is wise to consider how much trust this person has in you, because this will shift the balance of responsibility.

    Spregovori wrote:- necessity of evil

    Can a person learn through pain? Each war makes us more advance...in each war there are new...more advanced... ways to kill each other.

    I see how fire is like. It burns, it is eating me....the more it eats the less is left of me... So if i step out of the fire...i can now recognize the benefit of not being inside the fire? But for how long do i have to endure it? I see the fire...ok i am in it...it is getting hot....it is getting really unpleasant...ok PAIN... PAIN NOW....i jump out.... I have now recognized how it is to be in fire...can I just go away from it now? Is it my choice? Or should i remain there in pain..waiting...just to be sure i really see and know how it is? Will i leave when i will be ready to do so?

    I think the answer is yes, but I use the term catalyst (from Ra). Replace "evil"/"pain" in your example with catalyst to get where I am coming from. All catalyst is learning opportunity.

    Spregovori wrote:
    ********************

    Not reacting to what others say and or do (but responding as you decide)....not getting involved in what others say and do (unless asked to?)....and recognizing the "fire" at the same time...yet...only trying to get yourself out of it - is this being indifferent?
    Is selfishness despite all they teach and emotionally extort....after all...a "positive" thing?

    I can "elaborate" further on each point if need be. This is are just some quick "notes".

    I am not sure hypothetical "drama" is the right way to explore these because essential context is missing.

    I am certain that I want to live in a world where each person knowingly takes full responsibility for each thought they have, each word uttered, and every action and deed undertaken. In such a world people would necessarily need to be guided by their own light as they teach others and learn from others..

    To my way of seeing, your thinking boils down to the mechanics of Love and Wisdom, and the Actions (intent and followthrough) and resultant Reaction (karma) which are the way our 3D illusion is set up so we can learn and evolve.

    It is interesting that you are focussed on YOUR ( your I ) impact on others. I have a feeling that soon this will shift to WE ( ourselves) actions on Ourselves - and when that happens, things should get a bit easier !

    Thanks for the thought provoking post.
    Carol
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    Post  Carol Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:12 am

    Sometimes great words of wisdom are difficult to put into practice. Basically, the work is always on one's inner self. Yet, one must also set boundaries and refuse to be a target for abuse. Having worked in the field of abuse and violence for years l've learned from both my professional and personal experience ~ learning how to set personal boundaries is a very important issue when dealing with relationships in general.

    If one experiences someone being abusive the first response is to issue the command to STOP the abuse. The second response if the person who is abusing doesn't stop is to refuse to participate in the abuse. This can happen in a variety of ways. Since this is the net the first action is to insist the abuse stop. The second action if the abuse continues is to report the abuse to the admin/mods. The third line of action if the offender refuses to stop and the admin/mods didn't get the message across is to put the offender on ignore and refuse to dialog with the person in the threads. This can be very effective. More later.


    _________________
    What is life?
    It is the flash of a firefly in the night, the breath of a buffalo in the wintertime. It is the little shadow which runs across the grass and loses itself in the sunset.

    With deepest respect ~ Aloha & Mahalo, Carol
    Spregovori
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    Post  Spregovori Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:43 pm

    Anchor wrote:

    You are inviting the actions and situations you are faced with into your life.
    This was always so hard for me to accept....me "inviting" all the crap. To define it more accurately....like if a child gets raped....is that par of the "learning process" (karma and stuff)?



    Anchor wrote:Jealosy seems to me to be a perspective of the ego which isnt getting its own way. If you experience it, it is an amazing opportunity for you to change your responses.

    So it could be said that it hurts the image. The image that people have of themselves.

    Spregovori wrote:Can a person love more than just one? Can a person experience love (in all ways) with more than just one?

    Anchor wrote:
    Yes

    Interesting although there is a chance i was not clear enough...it was meant - at the same time - A love to be "given" without setting limitations of any kind or expecting anything in return....



    Anchor wrote:
    In such a situation you would follow your heart. Invariably this would motivate you to save life. Take a wider perspective and consider that you were placed in this situation so that you could be tested/taught in someway. Neglecting to act in such a case could be seen as the commission of a killing.

    Isn't it still an interference? For example...he can get electrocuted but still survives = a learning experience for him...which he "attracted into his life" ?


    Anchor wrote:
    In my opinion, if when you issued the orders you knew that they would be/should be followed without question, then you are ENTIRELY responsible for the order and the outcome. If when you issued the orders, and you knew that there was an option for those so ordered to ignore you or disobey, then you are obviously responsible for the utterance of the order, and the formation and transmission of that thoughtform, but not necessarily responsible for the outcome since it is out of your hands.

    Spoken like a true lawyer Wink



    Spregovori wrote:Someone goes and tells me no to bite my finger nails anymore. I get so very nervous for not doing it anymore that i simply loose control of my emotional responses. I get very agitated. In the process i divorce my wife, loose my best friend and start drinking alcohol. Who is responsible? The person giving me advice on not biting my nails or me for reacting the way i did? (btw this is a hypothetical example)

    Anchor wrote:
    You all are :) Dont bite your nails!

    Hehe so you see...it can have unforeseen consequences...

    Spregovori wrote:I push a small stone...now knowing it will cause an avalanche...the stone is there...it is just so small and simple...i mean...how can it hurt...it can not...right? Or can it?

    Anchor wrote:
    What you seem to be doing is, in a roundabout way, trying to illustrate the importance of INTENT. It is the intent that conditions the karma associated with the actions you undertake.

    So if i have no "negative" intent when performing an action...that action shall not do harm? Even though some others might see it as "bad" and "negative"?

    Spregovori wrote:How about when person itself asks you what to do? Is it than ok to answer?

    Anchor wrote:
    Yes, because they have the option to discriminate and decide for themselves if they want to accept or reject your information. However, I am sure there are times when it is wise to consider how much trust this person has in you, because this will shift the balance of responsibility.

    Interesting, thx.


    Anchor wrote:
    I think the answer is yes, but I use the term catalyst (from Ra). Replace "evil"/"pain" in your example with catalyst to get where I am coming from. All catalyst is learning opportunity.

    I am not sure hypothetical "drama" is the right way to explore these because essential context is missing.

    I am certain that I want to live in a world where each person knowingly takes full responsibility for each thought they have, each word uttered, and every action and deed undertaken. In such a world people would necessarily need to be guided by their own light as they teach others and learn from others..

    To my way of seeing, your thinking boils down to the mechanics of Love and Wisdom, and the Actions (intent and followthrough) and resultant Reaction (karma) which are the way our 3D illusion is set up so we can learn and evolve.

    It is interesting that you are focussed on YOUR ( your I ) impact on others. I have a feeling that soon this will shift to WE ( ourselves) actions on Ourselves - and when that happens, things should get a bit easier !

    Thanks for the thought provoking post.

    A catalyst you say...well it does sound more...acceptable and less fear like...


    Yes i am focused on how i influence others....what my actions or/and words (swords) can do to others. I have no bad intent (most of the time) but i do tend to upset people...and some situations (mostly emotional ones) are much more sensitive.... So i am trying to get....educated....

    Switching it to "we" would be great. There are more than enough examples on this forum.... It would be a nice experiment.....for people on the forum to use the 1st assumption and not react when someone gets them "upset" but rather....take time for themselves and think about what just happened, what got them upset, how did it happen,what inside of them allowed them to react and if they really should spent their time being upset or are there some other more beneficial uses like....not getting uspet the next time...by solving the problem they have...

    Like: hi, my name is Spregovori and I am an internet addict
    Everyone else: Hi Spregovori... :)

    or just by "contemplating" it...by focusing on SOLUTION (so not on the problem but on solution)



    Last edited by Spregovori on Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Spregovori
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    Post  Spregovori Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:46 pm

    Carol wrote:Sometimes great words of wisdom are difficult to put into practice.

    INDEED :)

    And than when that happens i tend to question my own logic and reason....but at least i do go and think about it....
    Mercuriel
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    Post  Mercuriel Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:26 pm

    The Issue is not in whether We must defend Ourselves from another when They violate Our Free-will by Attacking Us but rather whether We should be able to defend Ourselves well enough with Knowledge and Wisdom so as to show or make evident to the Attacker that another way - The Path of Center and Balance - Is a more fruitful way of proceeding...

    This then is the Crux and It is what We should seek always - And in that Seeking - We gather the Knowledge to not have to Defend Ourselves as there really is no need to Fight once We truly understand each other...

    Its this Seeking thats hard but in fact when We finally get down to It - Its then that We find out We're more like each other than We ever could have thought...

    cheers


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    Spregovori
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    Post  Spregovori Sat May 01, 2010 3:35 am

    Why defend? Like from physical harm and emotional abuse?
    Or to argument the "philosophy" stance and principles?


    That over there is Bob....he does things that way and thinks in this way....let him be
    That over there is Thom..he thinks in other way and does it other way...let him be

    Do not go and try to change them....

    Can Thom and Bob work together...can they make compromises, find common points, get along, become more alike? Yes!

    but not by defending themselves... or fighting (physical or emotional) with each other (even worse)

    Thom (like all people) lives in his own little world. So does Bob. There is this big fence...and everything beyond that fence wants to kill them and eat their eyes for Jujubes (or so they think) going "out there" in defense stance, with your shield ready to pummel...wont make any one more trustworthy... And while to some violence (verbal or physical) seems to "seal the deal"....it actually just seals them...

    It might be just me but i think that this is rather complex subject (the assumption mentioned above)...so any original input is appreciated...and "dealing with it" might be necessary before the next step....
    Anchor
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    Post  Anchor Sat May 01, 2010 4:13 am

    Spegovori wrote:Interesting although there is a chance i was not
    clear enough...it was meant - at the same time - A love to be "given"
    without setting limitations of any kind or expecting anything in
    return....

    Still yes.

    Unconditional love by definition has no limits. As a responsible entity creating things, one moderates any "application" of love according to ones Wisdom.

    AJ..
    mudra
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    Post  mudra Sat May 01, 2010 9:00 am

    Spregovori wrote:Have time? Hit the reply button and contribute.

    - our reactions to what others do and say is purely our own problem

    So if someone says something or does something....my reaction to it is my problem. There is only me to blame (if need be) and argue with. But since forgiveness is liberating we should just not waste our time with blame, resent, envy...etc

    Yes

    But what to do when someone hits me, someone yells at me, hurts me.... Can i act a "saint" and offer them my hand in friendship? Should i just "let go" and not respond in anger or sadness thus not putting wood on the fire of "negativity"? Should i let them abuse me? Will they stop if i do not fight back, will they be able to see? Or will i see..when i learn?

    One of my children while still a teenager used to regularly burst into heavy anger . I would then try to argue with him and often ended up crying . Until one day I consciously pretended he was frightening me by putting my hands in front of me in self defense . At that moment he stepped out of his anger and took me in his arms telling me " what are you doing ? Know I would never hurt you . He then bursted into tears realizing that he was not himself in such events . He apologized and told me when I am angry like that just don't say a word and leave me alone . Which I did and gradually he overcame his fits.

    When in love...what is jealousy if not a need to control? What is possession if not just another expression of greed?
    When it "hurts"....does it because we can not control and own?

    Jealousy in a relation comes from a sense of insecurity and a lack of trust in self . Also the erroneous belief that we can only find and receive Love from one person which is in contradiction with what Love is : a free boundless flow to all beings .

    Can a person love more than just one? Can a person experience love (in all ways) with more than just one ?


    Yes love has no bounderies.

    - allowance of the "free will"

    I see a person there...playing with high voltage cables... Should i go and tell it not to? Stop it from hurting itself? Am I interfering by doing that? It has a right to be ignorant...but than again..it might just be curious...exploring the high voltage cables... If i go and stop it....how should i do it...and at the same time....not causing some big drama and or traumatic effect....it could also be unnecessary....in case the cables might only have high voltage but very low current... Since it is the current that kills and not the voltage. The person playing with high voltage cables might also be very well aware of this... So i just watch...observe...it might get fried...than again...it might not...

    It is always wise to see things as they are rather than how we think they are .

    Or is it case dependent?

    I can go..tell others what to do... Does that make me responsible? It was an action.... I went and told someone what to do. Am I now responsible for that action?

    Or is each individual responsible for what it does?

    Everyone is responsible for what he does . Our responses to what others do should go in the direction of allowing responsability to manifest self included.

    There is a beautifull demonstration of this is in a series of videos on post 61 here : http://www.themistsofavalon.net/inspirations-f34/food-for-soul-t51-60.htm

    Someone goes and tells me no to bite my finger nails anymore. I get so very nervous for not doing it anymore that i simply loose control of my emotional responses. I get very agitated. In the process i divorce my wife, loose my best friend and start drinking alcohol. Who is responsible? The person giving me advice on not biting my nails or me for reacting the way i did? (btw this is a hypothetical example)

    We are responsible for loosing control of our emotional responses . That does'nt make another person we are dealing with less responsible for their own actions .

    I push a small stone...now knowing it will cause an avalanche...the stone is there...it is just so small and simple...i mean...how can it hurt...it can not...right? Or can it?

    " There is nobody to blame for anything "
    http://www.thetruthsoflife.com/nobodytoblame.html


    How about when person itself asks you what to do? Is it than ok to answer?
    You'll make him a greater favor to help him find his own answers.

    - necessity of evil

    Can a person learn through pain? Each war makes us more advance...in each war there are new...more advanced... ways to kill each other.

    I see how fire is like. It burns, it is eating me....the more it eats the less is left of me... So if i step out of the fire...i can now recognize the benefit of not being inside the fire? But for how long do i have to endure it? I see the fire...ok i am in it...it is getting hot....it is getting really unpleasant...ok PAIN... PAIN NOW....i jump out.... I have now recognized how it is to be in fire...can I just go away from it now? Is it my choice? Or should i remain there in pain..waiting...just to be sure i really see and know how it is? Will i leave when i will be ready to do so?

    It is not from pain that we learn.We may learn something from our attitudes towards pain though .


    Thanks Sregovori this is a good exercise :)

    Love Always
    mudra


    ********************

    Not reacting to what others say and or do (but responding as you decide)....not getting involved in what others say and do (unless asked to?)....and recognizing the "fire" at the same time...yet...only trying to get yourself out of it - is this being indifferent?
    Is selfishness despite all they teach and emotionally extort....after all...a "positive" thing?

    I can "elaborate" further on each point if need be. This is are just some quick "notes".


    Last edited by mudra on Sat May 01, 2010 10:48 am; edited 3 times in total
    hippihillbobbi
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    Post  hippihillbobbi Sat May 01, 2010 10:20 am

    Spreg --

    Thanks so much for initiating this interesting discussion. Provocative questions ..... lots of wise answers imo!

    yet, i have found myself continuing to feel somewhat frustrated as i've continued to read ..... wanting to simplify or reduce all the answers to something basic and fundamental. i.e., understanding of our essential unity (the law of One), acting from one's True Heart (thinking heart/feeling mind), the consistency of unconditional Love as the overriding intention, the "golden rule," (do unto others...), and the necessity for real discernment. Maybe we could add to these the fact that most of us are trying to transcend separation and polarity.

    iow .... if you are me ..... would i want someone to intervene to help me (in my ignorance) not be shocked by the electric power lines??? from the deepest place i'm able to access (True Heart), do i "discern" this is a situation that is truly dangerous or just an opportunity for learning? if I am considering acting-out my love for two different lovers at same time ..... would this be a mutual agreement where all of us agree this is what we think we want/need for our "soul-growth?" or is one of my lovers not ready for this sort of demonstration of all-inclusive love? am i tempted to be dishonest about my polyamorous activities with one of my lovers? and is such dishonesty consistent with the "golden rule?" can i in good conscious react in agresssive/mean/disrespectful ways to people who treat me that way ..... if i "remember" that actually we are the same Being?

    Perhaps i am missing some "nitty-gritty" aspect to your inquiries, Spreg, and--if so--sorry for wasting ya'lls time here, as i know ya'll are as aware of all these fundamental truths as i am. i guess, for me anyway, it's easier to try to treat/respond-to each person/situation in this 3d experience from these fundamental starting points ..... tried, true, trustworthy. i do realize this still necessitates inner questioning, centering, and discernment, and our individual answers may vary to the diverse situations we each encounter. but the starting points, it seems to me, remain consistent.

    much love to you all!
    hippihillbobbi
    Spregovori
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    Post  Spregovori Sat May 01, 2010 11:49 am

    hippihillbobbi wrote:
    wanting to simplify or reduce all the answers to something basic and fundamental. i.e., understanding of our essential unity (the law of One), acting from one's True Heart (thinking heart/feeling mind), the consistency of unconditional Love as the overriding intention, the "golden rule," (do unto others...), and the necessity for real discernment. Maybe we could add to these the fact that most of us are trying to transcend separation and polarity.

    I am trying to keep it as simple as possible (from my perspective). While doing so i avoid "laws". I prefer "originality" (as much as possible) an original statement (something from within you).

    I had no "law of One" in my mind while making that mail. There were "catalysts" that ...made me go and write it...but it came out of my head and if there are any possible similarities with any other before published material...than that...unfortunately...is a product of my subconscious mind (seeing a commercial too many times, makes you go and buy that set of knives...made just for you)

    But i am acting from my heart.


    Golden rule...you can go by it if that is your wish. Just try not to expect that other have the same "set of rules" that you do...
    Others might do to you what they would accept to be done to them...but you might not be willing to accept it.

    Unconditional love can be a ...problem. I am not capable of it. I admit. I have conditions like...what kind of looks i like and what not etc... The love subject itself could have a separate thread but it is my opinion that it is simply futile to discuss a complex subject like love (post grade study) if basic "mathematics" is giving us problems (primary school).


    To put in in short: i love you if, i accept you if, ...etc this are all conditions... to go beyond that is also beyond me at this time. I can say i love someone but at the same time i would not be interested in for example having intimate relationship with that person...so my love has a line i do not cross... Is that love? Can we make categories of love? Different love for parents, children, partners, friends? Can we than mix this categories, give it rules? Like a friend can be in friend-love category and in partner-love category while child is only in child-love category and never in partner-love category (yes i am making and extreme example here). And than to apply rules...to it... What each category can do and can not do...but by who's standards? Individual ones? Group ones? Political ones? Anyone truly understanding complexity this categorization can make has a head ache by now... One can also say it is a matter of feeling....you feel and you know... And it might be just that. It might be that logic and reason can not be used to dive into this topic. But people feel different and this again (people and their feelings) is to some point related to this thread but it could also have its own thread.

    If you wish a "quick fix" i can say for example: we are all born as polygamous, bisexual beings....everything else are simply the choices/decisions we make. (this statement in its current form lacks like a ton of back-up text and can be refuted but to refute it is even harder...i know..i did it)

    I can not comment on transcending separation and polarity...this two words are not defined clearly enough in my head.



    hippihillbobbi wrote:
    iow .... if you are me ..... would i want someone to intervene to help me (in my ignorance) not be shocked by the electric power lines??? from the deepest place i'm able to access (True Heart), do i "discern" this is a situation that is truly dangerous or just an opportunity for learning?

    If i would see you playing with power lines i would go with good intent to try to inform you of the possible outcomes of your actions. The end decision (at the very end of all things it always boils down to a decision)..the end decision would be yours and yours alone...and so would the consequences. I have written about this (and other stuff) in my other thread called "conversations with god".
    hippihillbobbi wrote:
    if I am considering acting-out my love for two different lovers at same time ..... would this be a mutual agreement where all of us agree this is what we think we want/need for our "soul-growth?" or is one of my lovers not ready for this sort of demonstration of all-inclusive love? am i tempted to be dishonest about my polyamorous activities with one of my lovers? and is such dishonesty consistent with the "golden rule?" can i in good conscious react in agresssive/mean/disrespectful ways to people who treat me that way ..... if i "remember" that actually we are the same Being?

    If all involved are there of their own will....i see nothing wrong in it. Open communication, honesty, truth... If one is not ready that that one should not "engage" (my opinion). At the same time...if the one that is not ready experiences rage, anger, sadness...as a result of the other two joining their "light bodies" than this by the "definition" is not unconditional love. I have spoken about the golden rule before. One should always be honest (my opinion). If there is a chance that feelings might get hurt it is the individual that has to make a decision weather to proceed with it or not....but if we look at the 1st assumption......you (for example) joining with another...thus causing "drama" reaction form someone else...you are not responsible for that drama reaction. Just be honest.


    I am "catching" my own tail" with this subject too. I am going through while trying to keep all the "propaganda" out of my thinking. I have no mercy for myself... And i was recently given a comment i can be brutally honest.

    All this stuff is up for a debate (that is why it is here). Nothing is written in stone.


    EDIT:

    The above part about the looks might have not anything to do with unconditional love....since the "browsing" part happens before you actually feel anything.
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    Post  Mercuriel Sat May 01, 2010 4:34 pm

    I must defend Myself from the Cold - the Weather - And so and and so I should have said safeguard perhaps but twisting what I AM getting at is not helping.

    I EXACTLY said without the Twist - Move away from the Fight - Defend Scenario to the Compromise Scenario If necessary but show the Logic in It...

    Blink

    Man the Energy sure is everywhere for a percieved conflict with any Mesages of Unity lately. Its like Peeps are trying to see where They can weedle an Argument out of Another rather than seeing the Argreement or meeting of Minds attempted.

    Owell - Carry on...

    Rolling Eyes


    _________________
    Namaste...

    Peace, Light, Love, Harmony and Unity...
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    Post  Pheryllt Sat May 01, 2010 9:13 pm

    Spregovori wrote:Have time? Hit the reply button and contribute.

    - our reactions to what others do and say is purely our own problem

    So if someone says something or does something....my reaction to it is my problem. There is only me to blame (if need be) and argue with. But since forgiveness is liberating we should just not waste our time with blame, resent, envy...etc

    Someone saying something and doing something is a vast difference. Yes our reactions are our responsibility entirely. That being said, the "offending" persons actions, and the reactions they receive from that is their responsibility. If they are willing to ellicit a certain reaction from someone then the should be prepared to deal with the consequences, though experience has shown they are for the most part supprised and or offended if you react to their actions.


    But what to do when someone hits me, someone yells at me, hurts me.... Can i act a "saint" and offer them my hand in friendship? Should i just "let go" and not respond in anger or sadness thus not putting wood on the fire of "negativity"? Should i let them abuse me? Will they stop if i do not fight back, will they be able to see? Or will i see..when i learn?

    If someone hits me with the intent to injure me, they are getting their asses kicked. Being enlightened does not mean being a punching bag for the dullards of the world.

    When in love...what is jealousy if not a need to control? What is possession if not just another expression of greed?
    When it "hurts"....does it because we can not control and own?

    Jealousy is a primal reaction to defend what is "mine" from those who would take it from "me". It is bashed into everyones heads from the time they are children. As we grow and learn, we realize that it is an unnecessary emotion as it takes the infidelity of your partner to warrent the emotional response. If you cannot trust your partner then you don't belong together in an exclusive arraingement.

    Can a person love more than just one? Can a person experience love (in all ways) with more than just one?

    I personally believe it to be possible, though so many mistake love for other things.

    - allowance of the "free will"

    I see a person there...playing with high voltage cables... Should i go and tell it not to? Stop it from hurting itself? Am I interfering by doing that? It has a right to be ignorant...but than again..it might just be curious...exploring the high voltage cables... If i go and stop it....how should i do it...and at the same time....not causing some big drama and or traumatic effect....it could also be unnecessary....in case the cables might only have high voltage but very low current... Since it is the current that kills and not the voltage. The person playing with high voltage cables might also be very well aware of this... So i just watch...observe...it might get fried...than again...it might not...

    Deciding to inform someone of possible danger is not imposing on free will. If i saw someone about to touch something that might hurt or kill them I would in a not so subtile way inform them of their potential danger. If after that warning they choose to "experience" that danger and injure or kill themselves, I walk away with no remorse, they choose to act and experience, and who am I to deny them that experience.

    Or is it case dependent?

    I can go..tell others what to do... Does that make me responsible? It was an action.... I went and told someone what to do. Am I now responsible for that action?

    When you tell someone to do something, you are taking responsibility to a certain extent for the actions that person does following your orders or instructions.

    Or is each individual responsible for what it does?

    Ultimately, the individual performing the action has direct responsibility, since they could have choosen to disregard the instructions.

    Someone goes and tells me no to bite my finger nails anymore. I get so very nervous for not doing it anymore that i simply loose control of my emotional responses. I get very agitated. In the process i divorce my wife, loose my best friend and start drinking alcohol. Who is responsible? The person giving me advice on not biting my nails or me for reacting the way i did? (btw this is a hypothetical example)

    It could be said the person telling you not to bite your nails was the root cause of the downward spiral, but as stated above, it is your responsibility ultimately since you could have choosen to disregard the instructions once your emotions started getting the better of you. To me the person giving that particular advice might feel compelled to appologise for starting you down that path though the advice given was generally innocuous and was probably given in the intent to help you and they may feel no responsibility since it was your "overreaction" that led to the breakdown. It depends on the person and what their level of responsibility encompasses.

    I push a small stone...now knowing it will cause an avalanche...the stone is there...it is just so small and simple...i mean...how can it hurt...it can not...right? Or can it?


    Its all about intent. If you know the possibility of the outcome and choose to act anyway, it is a more serious offence.

    How about when person itself asks you what to do? Is it than ok to answer?

    If a person asks for advice, you are free to give it, just as they are free to take your advice or disregard it.

    - necessity of evil

    Can a person learn through pain? Each war makes us more advance...in each war there are new...more advanced... ways to kill each other.

    Pain is a powerful teaching tool. It is direct and leaves a lasting impression. Some lessons seem to be better reinforced through pain, telling a child not to touch the stove since it is "hot" and it will "burn" you never seems to end without the child touching the hot stove and experiencing it for themselves. Then their minds "know" hot and burn where as before touching it they may have had only a vague understanding of it.


    I see how fire is like. It burns, it is eating me....the more it eats the less is left of me... So if i step out of the fire...i can now recognize the benefit of not being inside the fire? But for how long do i have to endure it? I see the fire...ok i am in it...it is getting hot....it is getting really unpleasant...ok PAIN... PAIN NOW....i jump out.... I have now recognized how it is to be in fire...can I just go away from it now? Is it my choice? Or should i remain there in pain..waiting...just to be sure i really see and know how it is? Will i leave when i will be ready to do so?


    You set your own determination. Some people jump back when they first feel the heat ciomming from the fire and that is enough for them. Others burn themselves to death. You determine what you want to experience and sometimes you choose to go back to something you have experienced before and re-experience it later in life to see if your perception of the thing or event has changed.

    ********************

    Not reacting to what others say and or do (but responding as you decide)....not getting involved in what others say and do (unless asked to?)....and recognizing the "fire" at the same time...yet...only trying to get yourself out of it - is this being indifferent?
    Is selfishness despite all they teach and emotionally extort....after all...a "positive" thing?

    Something I have tried to pass along to everyone who has ever asked me advice is this. "If you don't take care of yourself, you won't have the strength, means, or oppertunity to help others. You might be able for some time to help others without looking to your own needs, but sooner or later it will catch up to you and you will crash and thus be unable to help anyone. Take care of yourself 1st, and then you will be better equipped to help others"

    I can "elaborate" further on each point if need be. This is are just some quick "notes".
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    Post  Anchor Sun May 02, 2010 4:41 am

    mudra wrote:At that moment he stepped out of his anger and took me in his arms telling me " what are you doing ? Know I would never hurt you . He then bursted into tears realizing that he was not himself in such events . He apologized and told me when I am angry like that just don't say a word and leave me alone . Which I did and gradually he overcame his fits.


    Hence the expression "He was beside himself with anger".

    The core of that expression is that anger is so unlike you that it isnt you its something "beside" yourself :)

    John..
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    Post  anomalous cowherd Sun May 02, 2010 6:27 am

    The way I understand the expression " beside himself " with anger/grief/despair is when someone has popped out of their auric field, usually due to strong emotion, shock, drugs, accidents etc.
    If someone has a hole(s) in the aura one is more likey to be affected by astral interference, so yes, in that case they may not entirely be themselves . Interesting, one of my kids friend's is experiencing some of this from a drug incident . High doses of arnica coming up, helps to put one back in the body .
    I digress, but it's useful to have some high potency arnica ( 200 ) around these days.
    Since nobody said it yet, I go by the old adage, to assume makes an asp out of you and me. Sometimes it's hard to stay current in reality but assumptions imply we think we know more than we do.
    Best to just be in the flow and if the heart mind connection is working properly, one just knows what to do. Or not to do
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    Post  Anchor Sun May 02, 2010 6:52 am

    anomalous cowherd wrote:Since nobody said it yet, I go by the old adage, to assume makes an asp out of you and me. Sometimes it's hard to stay current in reality but assumptions imply we think we know more than we do.
    Best to just be in the flow and if the heart mind connection is working properly, one just knows what to do. Or not to do

    I think Spegavori is using the word Assumptions in the sense of a Hypothesis. Also it is an assumption/hypothesis under question, so no implications about knowledge.

    I agree with your last line, but we are also here to help eachother, so that means sharing some of the stuff you know and if you are lucky, you might get to know some that you didn't.

    John..
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    Post  mudra Sun May 02, 2010 7:09 am

    anomalous cowherd wrote: Sometimes it's hard to stay current in reality but assumptions imply we think we know more than we do.
    Best to just be in the flow and if the heart mind connection is working properly, one just knows what to do. Or not to do

    Yes I you make a good point anomalous. The heart knows and flows .

    Love from me
    mudra
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    Post  Spregovori Sun May 02, 2010 7:31 am

    Mercuriel wrote:I must defend Myself from the Cold - the Weather - And so and and so I should have said safeguard perhaps but twisting what I AM getting at is not helping.

    I EXACTLY said without the Twist - Move away from the Fight - Defend Scenario to the Compromise Scenario If necessary but show the Logic in It...

    Blink

    Man the Energy sure is everywhere for a percieved conflict with any Mesages of Unity lately. Its like Peeps are trying to see where They can weedle an Argument out of Another rather than seeing the Argreement or meeting of Minds attempted.

    Owell - Carry on...

    Rolling Eyes

    It would seem i did not understand your post as u meant it.
    My answer was more generally about the "phenomena" when someone think he/she needs to constantly defend...

    But yes...when cold i put on warm clothes....if provoked i tend to take a step back...if attacked i do attempt to avoid it....
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    Post  Spregovori Sun May 02, 2010 7:49 am

    Pheryllt wrote:

    Someone saying something and doing something is a vast difference. Yes our reactions are our responsibility entirely. That being said, the "offending" persons actions, and the reactions they receive from that is their responsibility. If they are willing to ellicit a certain reaction from someone then the should be prepared to deal with the consequences, though experience has shown they are for the most part supprised and or offended if you react to their actions.

    Yes, I agree.

    If someone hits me with the intent to injure me, they are getting their asses kicked. Being enlightened does not mean being a punching bag for the dullards of the world.

    :) interesting.
    I would add here that....being in a "trouble" situation is a learning experience but sustaining it by seeking excuses and not facing it is counter productive on the long run.... How to "solve" it though is another thing....i prefer as peaceful way as possible...


    Jealousy is a primal reaction to defend what is "mine" from those who would take it from "me". It is bashed into everyones heads from the time they are children. As we grow and learn, we realize that it is an unnecessary emotion as it takes the infidelity of your partner to warrent the emotional response. If you cannot trust your partner then you don't belong together in an exclusive arraingement.

    I personally believe it to be possible, though so many mistake love for other things.


    I was just told an opinion yesterday - that being in love is something that "consumes" you...it was said to me...that....all person does in constantly thinks about the other, what tit did, what it said.....i was told you put you heart on the platter and offer it fully..to give yourself entirely....and that this can be done with only one person (since there is only one heart)....so this was an argument saying it can not be done. After that i asked - "so this is being obsessed" And got a "yes" answer in return.... I am still thinking about it...but obsessive in not something i could call unconditional.

    You set your own determination. Some people jump back when they first feel the heat ciomming from the fire and that is enough for them. Others burn themselves to death. You determine what you want to experience and sometimes you choose to go back to something you have experienced before and re-experience it later in life to see if your perception of the thing or event has changed.



    Something I have tried to pass along to everyone who has ever asked me advice is this. "If you don't take care of yourself, you won't have the strength, means, or oppertunity to help others. You might be able for some time to help others without looking to your own needs, but sooner or later it will catch up to you and you will crash and thus be unable to help anyone. Take care of yourself 1st, and then you will be better equipped to help others"

    Yes, fully agree with this. People need to be selfish a little...it is a good thing.

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    Post  Spregovori Sun May 02, 2010 7:55 am

    mudra wrote:

    One of my children while still a teenager used to regularly burst into heavy anger . I would then try to argue with him and often ended up crying . Until one day I consciously pretended he was frightening me by putting my hands in front of me in self defense . At that moment he stepped out of his anger and took me in his arms telling me " what are you doing ? Know I would never hurt you . He then bursted into tears realizing that he was not himself in such events . He apologized and told me when I am angry like that just don't say a word and leave me alone . Which I did and gradually he overcame his fits.

    I can recognize this. Thank you for sharing it with us.

    Jealousy in a relation comes from a sense of insecurity and a lack of trust in self . Also the erroneous belief that we can only find and receive Love from one person which is in contradiction with what Love is : a free boundless flow to all beings .

    Can a person love more than just one? Can a person experience love (in all ways) with more than just one ?


    Yes love has no bounderies.

    Yes, "logic" suggests there should be no boundaries.


    We are responsible for loosing control of our emotional responses . That does'nt make another person we are dealing with less responsible for their own actions .

    :)


    It is not from pain that we learn.We may learn something from our attitudes towards pain though .

    This is very interesting...the way u put this...makes me think....

    Thanks Sregovori this is a good exercise :)

    Love Always
    mudra

    np :)

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    Post  Spregovori Sun May 02, 2010 8:03 am

    Anchor wrote:
    anomalous cowherd wrote:Since nobody said it yet, I go by the old adage, to assume makes an asp out of you and me. Sometimes it's hard to stay current in reality but assumptions imply we think we know more than we do.
    Best to just be in the flow and if the heart mind connection is working properly, one just knows what to do. Or not to do

    I think Spegavori is using the word Assumptions in the sense of a Hypothesis. Also it is an assumption/hypothesis under question, so no implications about knowledge.

    I agree with your last line, but we are also here to help eachother, so that means sharing some of the stuff you know and if you are lucky, you might get to know some that you didn't.

    John..

    by assuming it means that...one is "guessing"....in a way.... perhaps the choice of word is not exactly the best....my English vocabulary is limited...

    I assume that that people at the karaoke party will want a microphone and speakers....but i can not be sure what kind.....and they might also want more than just that...like a piano or drums... (i hope this example is good enough)

    so i can assume up to some point but beyond that is more like making "predictions" ...also depends on the topic..... as i said...everything is up for a discussion....nothing is written in stone
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    Post  mudra Sun May 02, 2010 11:49 am

    Spregovori wrote:
    - our reactions to what others do and say is purely our own problem


    But what to do when someone hits me, someone yells at me, hurts me.... Can i act a "saint" and offer them my hand in friendship? Should i just "let go" and not respond in anger or sadness thus not putting wood on the fire of "negativity"? Should i let them abuse me? Will they stop if i do not fight back, will they be able to see? Or will i see..when i learn?


    "Tyrants have been defeated many times on many planets , in countless solar systems and galaxies . How strange it is that as soon as one tyrant of any species is thought to be banished forever another always, but always takes his place. The idealistic revolutionaries who defeated King Georges III in America went on to oppress Indians and Blacks. Many of those who fought most courageously against the Axis powers of fascism later became facsists themselves .Yes you must try to regain control of your government , but if so much as one individual involved in this process has not first gained control of his or her selfhood, it will be for naught. One can never defeat or gain control of anything but oneself.
    One must always keep track of the state of his selfhood and learn first , to defeat within himself the essence of that which is tyranny . Through this type of awareness one will know when to act and when not to act . Through understanding a hostile entity to be but one of the Ineffables 's countless facades , it loses its power over you. Through the ability to wisely perceive a hostile entity , you may gain control of it .In overcoming the enemy one must take great precautions not to become oneself the enemy. Certain levels of conscious existence will always be subject to tyranny .It is the nature of the vibratory rate . Gain control of yourself by ceasing to try to control "

    From the Matrix Series - Valderan Valerian

    Love Always
    mudra
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    Post  SuiGeneris Mon May 03, 2010 12:33 am

    Assumptions Manos
    Hi dear Spregovori!!
    Let me start by saying Thank You for this awesome thread!!Double Thumbs Up

    Our reactions to what others do and say is purely our own problem.
    So if someone says something or does something....my reaction to it is my problem. There is only me to blame (if need be) and argue with. But since forgiveness is liberating we should just not waste our time with blame, resent, envy...etc

    Yes... we shouldn't waste our energy blaming, especially if we are to blame ourselves. It all begins with the self so self-forgiveness is key to forgive others of past, present and future actions.

    But what to do when someone hits me, someone yells at me, hurts me.... Can i act a "saint" and offer them my hand in friendship? Should i just "let go" and not respond in anger or sadness thus not putting wood on the fire of "negativity"? Should i let them abuse me? Will they stop if i do not fight back, will they be able to see? Or will i see..when i learn?

    Yes, you can offer your hand in friendship, even more than that...You should. When someone does something negative it is them not remembering who they are. You should look at them with love and compassion in your heart and project it to them honestly. You should not respond in anger or sadness, not only because you will be putting more fire to the negativity and will actually be sharing their rage; but also because it will bring your own frequency down and most likely than not you will loose control of yourself and your balance.

    This does not mean you should let anyone abuse you. You should always try to avoid any possible situation of abuse and defend yourself and fight back if you have to; but when and if someone or something overcomes you, it is not your karma anymore but theirs.


    When in love...what is jealousy if not a need to control? What is possession if not just another expression of greed?
    When it "hurts"....does it because we can not control and own?

    Yes, exactly. Sadly those reactions have become an automatic response. We have made our happiness subject to the other person. When someone is in love and it "hurts" it could be due to a myriad of reasons mostly because expectations were not met. The idea of love was "set" and this person did the opposite or whatever... Now, this is not unconditional Love. This is conditional love in its simplest form.

    In order to feel love unconditionally for someone, you must feel it for yourself first. You can only share what you own. This idea of loving someone unconditionally is divine, however, at this time it is very hard to try to apply it in a world of duality because it simply does not fit. Unconditional Love is limitless and all encompassing while 3D relationships are still very much limited and segregatory due to all our conditions and mental blocks from living in a system of entropy and degradation.

    I say it is very hard but not at all impossible. Actually it is by doing it, consciously trying to achieve this state of unconditional love for someone else when one is finally able to realize what it would be like to live in the higher dimensions; and by its practice one brings it into existence in the NOW.

    This is a courageous act, for you will definitely be exposing yourself to getting back something less than what you give because we are still living in duality. But it is only at this stage... (after the fact) When you feel hurt, sad, betrayed, lonely, enraged, etc... that you can then decide what to do with those feelings.

    Emotions are not to be suppressed; they are there to teach us control. You will not be merely "reacting" in auto-pilot anymore, letting your feelings take over you and blinding your vision; but you will observe that no matter what happens, no matter what the other person does, or doesn't do, it is YOU who is and always will be in control of the Love you give to others.

    It all comes down to awareness. Once more and more people understand it and practice it, then a whole network will be created in a Noosphere and it will be easier for all to access it in the New World. There is an actual "mini experiment" going on now that is designed to create this template and be released to act as a "hundred monkey effect" on Earth. All "self chosen ones" are already immersed in it.


    Can a person love more than just one? Can a person experience love (in all ways) with more than just one?

    It is the ultimate goal yes. This is what living in Oneness really means. Nevertheless, it is difficult to conceive of this idea now because we are still very much immersed in The Matrix and it is not the "norm" yet to say the least. It is interesting to observe how people already do seem to feel "love" for more than one, and unsurprisingly enough when they try to live it and express it openly they make a mess of things due to society's judgments and imposed rules. But perhaps there is a reason for this...

    In a world of duality, in a slow 3D Matrix, man had to learn responsibility for himself and for others. Thus the family nucleus was born composed of male and female to be able to reproduce children and work as a mini unit of the whole. A fractal. Two becoming together as one was necessary to be experienced and understood before the notion of All becoming together as one could come into the picture.

    It was a natural progression, as you must learn to walk before you can run. It could be debatable if this natural arrangement worked or not; but I don't doubt Creation and the MasterPlan of The Logos. I see it as the base of a much bigger and complex structure that was to come later... today's world.

    Creation is limitless... and therefore our hearts are limitless too; so we could not only have two in our heart, but ALL. Yet, I still feel that two would be enough if both partners feel absolute love for each other. But this new arrangement begs for a world of its own see? A place where self responsibility is a given and open communication, honesty and respect are shared freely and without measure...meaning unconditionally, so Unconditional Love will then fit perfectly.

    In this type of environment couples still exist yes. Many other ET civilizations that live in the higher dimensions do live like this. Some procreate, some don't. Some do stay together for long periods of time and when either one wants out, or feels that their time together has to end, they end it.

    If they feel they want to share their love with someone other than their partner they do it; but they must do it openly, no lies, no secrets, no selfishness, no hard feelings, no disrespect and therefore... no pain. In that case it will be up to them if they want to remain together or not. You see, there are no more "rules" that you must follow... There is "no marriage in heaven." At least not as we understand it. It will be just you and your sovereignty. Now isn't this Utopian world something worth creating?


    allowance of the "free will"

    I see a person there...playing with high voltage cables... Should i go and tell it not to? Stop it from hurting itself? Am I interfering by doing that? It has a right to be ignorant...but than again..it might just be curious...exploring the high voltage cables... If i go and stop it....how should i do it...and at the same time....not causing some big drama and or traumatic effect....it could also be unnecessary....in case the cables might only have high voltage but very low current... Since it is the current that kills and not the voltage. The person playing with high voltage cables might also be very well aware of this... So i just watch...observe...it might get fried...than again...it might not...Or is it case dependent?

    I will definitely warn the person if I see there is a dangerous situation right away. Yes, people have the right to swim in their own ignorance 'till their fingers get all pruny if they choose to, but at least I will be satisfied and at peace with myself for having done something I thought to be right. There is always free will to either accept the advise or not.

    Selfless people always give as a natural spontaneous response without thinking much of the opinions of others. You don't need to be popular or politically correct in order to give someone advise you think will definitely be accepted. Doing your part with always the best intention at heart is what matters.


    I can go..tell others what to do... Does that make me responsible? It was an action.... I went and told someone what to do. Am I now responsible for that action?
    Or is each individual responsible for what it does?

    You are always responsible for your words. Words carry energy, and so you are responsible for the energy imprint in them and how you transmit it to others. Your intention should always be clear in your mind so that you will begin to learn how to transmit your thoughts and feelings as clean as possible. Talking, as every human action should be... is an art. The more you perfect it, the less room for misunderstandings.

    Each individual is then responsible for what they do with that information, but still... you can never fully detach from the outcome anyway; for if you were not there to (talk) in the first place, then what happens afterwards has no correlation to you.

    But since you WERE there, YOU affected the reality of that situation and brought it into your own "mini world". Each person then lives their own reality and are at the center of their own Universe. If you understand this...the word responsibility takes a whole new different shape now...doesn't it?


    Someone goes and tells me no to bite my finger nails anymore. I get so very nervous for not doing it anymore that i simply loose control of my emotional responses. I get very agitated. In the process i divorce my wife, loose my best friend and start drinking alcohol. Who is responsible? The person giving me advice on not biting my nails or me for reacting the way i did? (btw this is a hypothetical example)

    As Krishnamurti said: "You are responsible for the whole world, not as an idea....but as a fact." And so whether the other person takes responsibility or not for their silly actions is their choice. You are ALWAYS responsible!
    (Advise: keep your intention pure)


    I push a small stone...now knowing it will cause an avalanche...the stone is there...it is just so small and simple...i mean...how can it hurt...it can not...right? Or can it?

    It could go either way...Oh but you knew that. So then what? What does this mean? Am I just going to numb myself into inaction just because of the possibility that something might go wrong? Am I a coward? Should I always play it "safe"?? What is "safe" anymore? Who cares if it is or not? Planet Earth is not for cowards I tell you that. Duality is no child's play. Life is too short to waste not living it fully, with all your heart, with all your mind, all your passion, with everything that you've got!

    Fear of consequence must not be mistaken for caution and prudence in treating others. Yes, you must always be careful not to hurt someone else, but once you have Love in your heart you can never truly hurt anyone. Love melts any fear.


    How about when person itself asks you what to do? Is it than ok to answer?
    It's not only ok to answer...it becomes your responsibility to answer.

    necessity of evil

    Can a person learn through pain? Each war makes us more advance...in each war there are new...more advanced... ways to kill each other.

    I see how fire is like. It burns, it is eating me....the more it eats the less is left of me... So if i step out of the fire...i can now recognize the benefit of not being inside the fire? But for how long do i have to endure it? I see the fire...ok i am in it...it is getting hot....it is getting really unpleasant...ok PAIN... PAIN NOW....i jump out.... I have now recognized how it is to be in fire...can I just go away from it now? Is it my choice? Or should i remain there in pain..waiting...just to be sure i really see and know how it is? Will i leave when i will be ready to do so?

    We learn from experience and pain is part of the learning process in duality. Once you have recognized that something is painful, then you've learned its lesson and can go away from it if you choose yes. Why would you remain there? Waiting for what? if you've already seen it for what it is, unless you doubt yourself and think you might need a bigger dose of pain to really "get it". Only you can make that choice. And about the time you'll leave it, well... it could be when you can't take it anymore and realize that it's killing you, or when someone comes to your rescue!


    Not reacting to what others say and or do (but responding as you decide)....not getting involved in what others say and do (unless asked to?)....and recognizing the "fire" at the same time...yet...only trying to get yourself out of it - is this being indifferent? Is selfishness despite all they teach and emotionally extort....after all...a "positive" thing?

    No, this is not being indifferent. Being indifferent is something else. You can be indifferent to great many things and in fact sometimes it is the best option after you've weighted the pros and cons. Now, if you decide not to react but to think logically, then it is your choice and should do accordingly. Just keep in mind that "logical thinking" is not the only route you can take. There is also the merging of the mind and the heart which will actually yield you better results in the end no matter what the situation.

    The non-involvement part is also your choice. Some learn by involving themselves in everything, others do so by retraction and contemplation. Whichever way you choose to learn, please know that you can ALWAYS change your mind and try something different if it's not working for you.

    Trying to avoid the pain of "fire" would be wise indeed only if you are to gain nothing out of it. However, depending upon what your GOAL is and the strength of your determination, some things do become not only bearable but much worth ANY suffering in order to reach it.

    Selfishness could never be a positive thing... for by the same measure of which you give you attain happiness!


    I can "elaborate" further on each point if need be. This are just some quick "notes".

    I can also "elaborate" further if asked specifically. These are just my quick answers to your quick "notes".Big Grin 3

    All my Love for you!!
    Hugs

    SuiG
    Spregovori
    Spregovori

    Posts : 74
    Join date : 2010-04-09

    Assumptions Empty Re: Assumptions

    Post  Spregovori Tue May 04, 2010 4:04 am

    So the general agreement (of those involved) seems to be that:

    - your reaction to whatever someones says and does is your problem, deal with it
    - you are responsible for your actions
    - ignore if provoked
    - avoid conflict
    - defend if attacked
    - unconditional love is not something you see in a movie or read in a romantic novel
    - it is ok to go and "interfere" with life of another as long as the intent is benevolent
    - when asked a question a honest answer should be given
    - learn from experience and take care of yourself before taking care of others


    I think that we as people are light years away from this.

    Still it is somewhat "surprising" that topic was able to evolve this far. It seems that the careful choice of words, expressions and examples did prove to be a "safe" way of presenting a subject such as this....

    Which brings me to the next thing - how would it look like to not be careful? Wink

    Just how quick the hammer might fall....on the white-hot grounds....

    eof
    Mercuriel
    Mercuriel
    Admin
    Admin

    Posts : 3494
    Join date : 2010-04-07
    Location : Walking the Path...

    Assumptions Empty Re: Assumptions

    Post  Mercuriel Tue May 04, 2010 4:34 am

    While these Views have been displayed to some extent - It may be an Assumption in Itself to think that All Posters will have meant what You've said They meant in All cases - And with that understood - Its likely that there would be additional nuances that would need to be applied by the various Posters as to fine tuning Their own distinctions about what They've said or tried to get across before a generalization such as the one above could be applied to the Group of Posters in this Thread - En Masse...

    While Each Poster has displayed an Element of the above - Language is a limited Construct in a Limited Reality - And even moreso in Print...

    Wink


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    Namaste...

    Peace, Light, Love, Harmony and Unity...

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