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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:12 am

    Absolutely no offense to anybody please.
    with love to you and best wishes. D.
    Meat Eaters


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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:16 am

    Rozzy, IMO, the problem with todays economics is that industries spend vast resources to grow one beef, to feed a few people. At the same time we burn rain forests to grow food for our "food" - animals.
    It is bad economics.
    I agree with you all.
    I was born in catolic country and told "You shall not kill". Maybe it is a part of awakening - 7 years vegetarian.
    In India the tradition says that a cow is the machine of food given by God himself. Cow is Mother for humanity. There is no food daily consumed by a person, where a milk product would not be used. I always had a feeling there should be a reason for making cows saint... you know this six sence...
    love you all
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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:21 am

    Hmmm....
    "Nothing will benefit human health and increase the chances for survival of life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet." Albert Einstein
    "Our task must be to free ourselves...by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature and its beauty." Albert Einstein

    Leonardo da Vinci:
    "He who does not value life does not deserve it." He considered the bodies of meat-eaters to be "burial places," graveyards for the animals they eat. His notebooks are full of passages that show his compassion for living creatures. He lamented, "Endless numbers of these animals shall have their little children taken from them, ripped open, and barbarously slaughtered."
    French philosopher Jean Jacques Rousseau was an advocate of natural order. He observed that the meat-eating animals are generally more cruel and violent than herbivores. He therefore reasoned that a vegetarian diet would produce a more compassionate person. He even advised that butchers not be allowed to testify in court or sit on juries.
    Pythagoras:
    "Oh, my fellow men, do not defile your bodies with sinful foods. We have corn, we have apples bending down the branches with their weight, and grapes swelling on the vines. There are sweet-flavored herbs, and vegetables which can be cooked and softened over the fire, nor are you denied milk or thyme-scented honey. The earth affords a lavish supply of riches, of innocent foods, and offers you banquets that involve no bloodshed or slaughter: only beasts satisfy their hunger with flesh, and not even all of those, because horses, cattle, and sheep live on grass." The biographer Diogenes tells us that Pythagoras ate bread and honey in the morning and raw vegetables at night. He would also pay fisherman to throw their catch back into the sea.
    Roman Plutarch:
    "Can you really ask what reason Pythagoras had for abstinence from flesh? For my part I rather wonder both by what accident and in what state of mind the first man touched his mouth to gore and brought his lips to the flesh of a dead creature, set forth tables of dead, stale bodies, and ventured to call food and nourishment the parts that has a little before bellowed and cried, moved and lived. How could eyes endure the slaughter when throats were slit and hides flayed and limbs torn from limb.
    How could his nose endure the stench? How was it that the pollution did not turn away his taste, which made contact with sores of others and sucked juices and serums from mortal wounds? It is certainly not lions or wolves that we eat out of self-defense; on the contrary, we ignore these and slaughter harmless, tame creatures without stings or teeth to harm us. For the sake of a little flesh we deprive them of sun, of light, of the duration of life to which they are entitled by birth and being."
    The Russian author Leo Tolstoy became a vegetarian in 1885. Giving up the sport of hunting, he advocated "vegetarian pacifism" and was against killing even the smallest living things, such as the ants. He felt there was a natural progression of violence that led inevitably to war in human society. In his essay "simply immoral, as it involves the performance of an act which is contrary to moral feeling - killing." By killing, Tolstoy believed, "man suppresses in himself, unnecessarily, the highest spiritual capacity - that of sympathy and pity towards living creatures like himself - and by violating his own feelings becomes cruel."
    http://harekrishna.com/col/books/VEG/ht/chapthr.html
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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:29 am

    Rozzy, IMO the problem is we all have more than we need. We all live in this illusion (maya) that we need even more.
    IMO in this world there are starving babies and old, but we feed animals with more grains and water. All those industries, providing food and water for animals including killing rainforests, should work to provide food for people, their basic needs. Next bad thing is that we kill those animals to satisfy our senses. Isn’t it bad karma, people should ask themselves...

    In ancient India, long before british build roads and cities, destroyed villages, introduced greed for money, people lived in harmony and had all they need. There were village next to village, people decorated every morning their house with flowers, their outside door path with beautiful mandalas using colorful powders, they worshiped creator, they found time to pray and offer prepared food for creator. They prayed mantras while preparing food to enhance the food energy they consumed. They all knew their duties. They celebrated each day in their hearts. Woman with white dresses used to go to gardens to work, but always stayed clean, as they performed everything with love and everything was done perfectly.
    Village next to village in peace. There were wars only against those who had no creator in their hearts, no love to him. There were no greed and people had only what they need. They did not seek what they don’t need. They treated each other as equal.
    It sounds like a nice story, but it is described in ancient Sanskrit texts. ‘

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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:29 am

    Was it truly removed by Vatican?

    The Essene Gospel of Peace III

    Translated by Purcell Weaver and Edmond Szekely the following is considered by some to be a true account of Christ’s original teaching. Based on texts from the Vatican library and the Royal Library of the Hapsburg’s and dated to the first century AD, it contains many references to fasting, vegetarianism and angels; all of which were altered or entirely removed from Christian teaching after the first Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. Convened by the Emperor Constantine the Council effectively hammered out what was to become the Holy Roman Law scriptures. In the process a lot of Christianity’s original spiritual essence was edited or removed entirely to serve the more earthly agendas of the emergent Holy Roman Empire. We leave you to decide whether the following is in fact the authentic word of Christ...


    And it was by the bed of a stream; many sick fasted and prayed with God's angels for seven days and seven nights. And great was their reward, because they followed Jesus words. And with the passing of the seventh day, all their pains left them. And when the sun rose over the earth's rim they saw Jesus coming towards them from the mountain, with the brightness of the rising sun about his head.

    “Peace be with you.”

    And they said no word at all, but only cast themselves down before him, and touched the hem of his garment in token of their healing.

    “Give thanks not to me, but to your Earthly Mother, who sent you her healing angels. Go, and sin no more, that you may never again see disease. And let the healing angels become your guardians.”

    But they answered him: “Whither should we go, Master, for with you are the words of eternal life? Tell us, what are the sins which we must shun, that we may nevermore see disease?”

    Jesus answered: “Be it so according to your faith,” and he sat down among them, saying:

    “It was said to them of old time, 'Honour thy Heavenly Father and thy Earthly Mother, and do their commandments, that thy days may be long upon the earth.' And next afterward was given this commandment, 'Thou shalt not kill,' for life is given to all by God, and that which God has given, let not man take away. For I tell you truly, from one Mother proceeds all that lives upon the earth. Therefore, he who kills, kills his brother. And from him will the Earthly Mother turn away, and will pluck from him her quickening breasts. And he will be shunned by her angels, and Satan will have his dwelling in his body. And the flesh of slain beasts in his body will become his own tomb. For I tell you truly, he who kills, kills himself, and whoso eats the flesh of slain beasts, eats of the body of death. For in his blood every drop of their blood turns to poison; in his breath their breath to stink; in his flesh their flesh to boils; in his bones their bones to chalk; in his bowels their bowels to decay; in his eyes their eyes to scales; in his ears their ears to waxy issue. And their death will become his death. For only in the service of your Heavenly Father are your debts of seven years forgiven in seven clays. But Satan forgives you nothing and you must pay him for all. 'Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot; burning for burning, wound for wound; life for life, death for death.' For the wages of sin is death. Kill not; neither eat the flesh of your innocent prey, lest you become the slaves of Satan. For that is the path of sufferings, and it leads unto death. But do the will of God, that his angels may serve you on the way of life. Obey, therefore, the words of God: 'Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to everything that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is breath of life, I give every green herb for meat. Also the milk of every thing that moveth and liveth upon earth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given unto them, so I give their milk unto you. But flesh, and the blood which quickens it, shall ye not eat. And, surely, your spurting blood will I require, your blood wherein is your soul; I will require all slain beasts, and the souls of all slain men. For I the Lord thy God am a God strong and jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength: this is the first and greatest commandment.' And the second is like unto it: 'Love thy neighbour as thyself' There is none other commandment greater than these.”

    And after these words they all remained silent, save one, who called out: “What am I to do, Master, if I see a wild beast rend my brother in the forest? Shall I let my brother perish, or kill the wild beast? Shall not I thus transgress the law?”

    And Jesus answered: “It was said to them of old time: ‘All beasts that move upon the earth, all the fish of the sea, and all the fowl of the air are given into thy power.’ I tell you truly, of all creatures living upon the earth, God created only man after his image. Wherefore beasts are for man, and not man for beasts. You do not, therefore, transgress the law if you kill the wild beast to save your brother's life. For I tell you truly, man is more than the beast. But he who kills the beast without a cause, though the beast attack him not, through lust for slaughter, or for its flesh, or for its hide, or yet for its tusks, evil is the deed which he does, for he is turned into a wild beast himself. Wherefore is his end also as the end of the wild beasts.”
    Then another said: “Moses, the greatest in Israel, suffered our forefathers to eat the flesh of clean beasts, and forbade only the flesh of unclean beasts. Why, therefore, do you forbid us the flesh of all beasts? Which law comes from God? That of Moses, or your law?”

    And Jesus answered: “God gave, by Moses, ten commandments to your forefathers. 'These commandments are hard,' said your forefathers, and they could not keep them. When Moses saw this, he had compassion on his people, and would not that they perish. And then he gave them ten times ten commandments. For he whose feet are strong as the mountain of Zion, needs no crutches; but he whose limbs do shake, gets further having crutches, than without them. And Moses said to the Lord: 'My heart is filled with sorrow, for my people will be lost. For they are without knowledge, and are not able to understand thy commandments. They are as little children who cannot yet understand their father's words. Suffer, Lord, that I give them other laws, that they may not perish. if they may not be with thee, Lord, let them not be against thee; that they may sustain themselves, and when the time has come, and they are ripe for thy words, reveal to hem thy laws.' For that did Moses break the two tablets of stone whereon were written the ten commandments, and he gave them ten times ten in their stead. And of these ten times ten the Scribes and Pharisees have made a hundred times ten commandments. And they have laid unbearable burdens on your shoulders, that they themselves do not carry. For the more nigh are the commandments to God, the less do we need; and the farther they are from God, then the more do we need. Wherefore are the laws of the Pharisees and Scribes innumerable; the laws of the Son of Man seven; of the angels three; and of God one.

    “Therefore, I teach you only those laws which you can understand, that you may become men, and follow the seven laws of the Son of Man. Then will the unknown angels of the Heavenly Father also reveal their laws to you, that God's holy spirit may descend upon you, and lead you to his law.”

    And all were astonished at his wisdom, and asked him: “Continue, Master, and teach us all the laws which we can receive.”
    And Jesus continued: “God commanded your forefathers: 'Thou shalt not kill.' But their heart was hardened and they killed. Then Moses desired that at least they should not kill men, and he suffered them to kill beasts. And then the heart of your forefathers was hardened yet more, and they killed men and beasts likewise. But I do say to you: Kill neither men, nor beasts, nor yet the food which goes into your mouth. For if you eat living food, the same will quicken you, but if you kill your food, the dead food will kill you also. For life comes only from life, and from death comes always death. For everything which kills your foods, kills your bodies also. And everything which kills your bodies kills your souls also. And your bodies become what your foods are, even as your spirits, likewise, become what your thoughts are. Therefore, eat not anything which fire, or frost, or water has destroyed. For burned, frozen and rotted foods will burn, freeze and rot your body also (1). Be not like the foolish husbandman who sowed in his ground cooked, and frozen, and rotten seeds. And the autumn came, and his fields bore nothing. And great was his distress. But be like that husbandman who sowed in his field living seed, and whose field bore living ears of wheat, paying a hundredfold for the seeds which he planted. For I tell you truly, live only by the fire of life, and prepare not your foods with the fire of death, which kills your foods, your bodies and your souls also.”

    “Master, where is the fire of life?” asked some of them.
    “In you, in your blood, and in your bodies.”
    “And the fire of death?” asked others.

    “It is the fire which blazes outside your body, which is hotter than your blood. With that fire of death you cook your foods in your homes and in your fields. I tell you truly, it is the same fire which destroys your foods and your bodies, even as the fire of malice, which ravages your thoughts, ravages your spirits. For your body is that which you eat, and your spirit is that which you think. Eat nothing, therefore, which a stronger fire than the fire of life has killed. Wherefore, prepare and eat all fruits of trees, and all grasses of the fields, and all milk of beasts good for eating. For all these are fed and ripened by the fire of life; all are the gift of the angels of our Earthly Mother. But eat nothing to which only the fire of death gives savor, for such is of Satan.”

    “So eat always from the table of God: the fruits of the trees, the grain and grasses of the field, the milk of beasts, and the honey of bees. For everything beyond these is of Satan, and leads by the way of sins and of diseases unto death. But the foods which you eat from the abundant table of God give strength and youth to your body, and you will never see diseases For the table of God fed Methuselah of old, and I tell you truly, if you live even as he lived, then will the God of the living give you also long life upon the earth as was his.

    “For I tell you truly, the God of the living is richer than all the rich of the earth, and his abundant table is richer than the richest table of feasting of all the rich upon the earth. Eat; therefore, all your life at the table of our Earthly Mother, and you will never see want. And when you eat at her table, eat all things even as they are found on the table of the Earthly Mother. Cook not, neither mix all things one with another, lest your bowels become as steaming bogs (2). For I tell you truly, this is abominable in the eyes of the Lord.

    “Take heed, therefore, and defile not with all kinds of abominations the temple of your bodies. Be content with two or three sorts of food, which you will find always upon the table of our Earthly Mother. And desire not to devour all things which you see around you. For I tell you truly, if you mix together all sorts of food in your body, then the peace of your body will cease, and endless war will rage in you. And it will be blotted out even as homes and kingdoms divided against themselves work their own destruction. For your God is the God of peace, and does never help division. Arouse not, therefore, against you the wrath of God, lest he drive you from his table, and lest you be compelled to go to the table of Satan, where the fire of sins, diseases, and death will corrupt your body.”

    From: The Gospel of Peace of Jesus Christ published by CW Daniel Company Ltd. ISBN 0-85207-103-5


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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:40 am

    Mercuriel:
    Man that is quite a List. It makes Me feel much better that I've gone Vegan. Not fully by any means but We - My Wife and I - Eat Meat maybe twice a Month now and its getting less and less as moments go by...

    We used to be every day and the strangest thing I can relate is that once You stabilize - You have MORE Energy than You did as a Meat Eater. At least I find that I do...
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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:40 am

    Eleni:Meat= gross IMHO.
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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:41 am

    Bobbie:
    After watching the Food video we are eating less and less meat and leaning more towards the sea and fresh organic fruits and veg. I have a fabulous recipe for vegetarian chili that we make fairly often and it's great with a piece of corn bread. Happy to share if anyone is interested.


    Don't get me wrong, I love the taste of good BBQ, etc. but the thought of how they force feed the animals and then slaughter them just turns my stomach. I love alive animals and meat is just hard for me to swallow anymore. I think eventually we will cut it out all together. The Chipoltle Grill only uses organically fed and naturally grazed meats from what I understand.


    Now, because we're eating less, we can afford a higher quality naturally grown with love meat like from Niman Ranch or from Wholefoods. I bought some chicken breast from there and if you want a real shocker, buy some and compare it to what you've been eating from your regular market. It's the different in eating cardboard vs. a succulent peach.
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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:43 am

    malynda:I've been thinking about going vegan for quite a while so this information is great. I don't like very spicy things and would call myself a meat and potatoes kind of eater. I love fruits, nuts, vegetables (like carrots, corn, potatoes) and always a good salad but just can't kick the meat.

    I also can't put on weight to save my life. My worries about being vegan are not finding enough veggies I enjoy and not being able to keep what little weight I have. Maybe some of you have experience with this. Thank you for all you have shared.
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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:44 am

    burgundia:I stopped eating meat a long time ago...it may happen sporadically that within a year I will eat it 2 or 3 times. I wish my cats became vegetarian...
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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:45 am

    Rozzy:
    Maybe they should slaughter the sacred cows and eat, that way there is more grain available and meat to stay healthy and not STARVE
    Economics you say?

    I have a hundred fifty acres of good land, it is sitting empty at the moment. I could put a couple of steers there and let them feed for as long as I want and it would not cost me a dime. There is a whole lot of Bar-B-Que out of a couple of those guys! Ternera a la Llanera
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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:47 am

    Tatiana:Very interesting thread!

    I grew up vegetarian, ate meat modestly for many years after I left home and finally returned to vegetarianism around the 90's. I must admit that I do like the taste of meat, every now and then I indulge and have a little BBQ - but no beef ever. If I do eat meat it will be chicken or turkey, but lately it seems I have lost my taste for it. I also eat fish occasionally, but the great bulk of my diet consists of vegetables, fruit, grains and some cheese. Lately I have made an effort to make a sizable portion of my meals raw - salads, smoothies etc - I feel better it seems.

    I know all of the arguments re health, compassion, sustainability etc - all of which point towards vegetarianism as a better choice for a global diet. Of course people are used to eating a certain way and save being faced with health problems or having a well developed sense of empathy towards all living creatures it will take considerable effort to change that if it is possible at all.

    Some time ago I came across an article based on the research of a Muslim writer and filmaker, Kamran Pasha, who himself is not a vegan or vegetarian, stating that not only is it very likely that Jesus was a vegetarian, but that he made abstinence of meat a major condition for enlightenment! He even goes so far as to speculate that it was this that led to his death as he was vehemently opposed to the sacrifice of animals in the temple and thereby threatened to undermine the priests livelihood.



    QUOTE
    And in the process of examining the New Testament and early historical sources about Jesus, I became shocked to learn that perhaps neither Christians nor Muslims today truly understand what Jesus was about. The evidence of religious vegetarianism in the early Christian community was so overwhelming that I was forced to consider why this was not one of the issues that divide Christians and Muslims in theology. Most Christians and most Muslims are not vegetarian and most people in both faiths would be startled by the suggestion that Jesus and the early Christians were staunch vegetarians.

    You might want to read the entire article at the http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kamran-pasha...n_b_276141.html

    It sounds like a very interesting book about a very interesting subject!
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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:48 am

    Carol:

    Woah. What an eye opener.
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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:49 am

    Myself posted:Ok, there is a thing. What is important is the whole movement of food produce. To look at the whole structure of how this really works one must not focus on the branch of the issue, we need to overlook it as a whole thing - the need of food for humans.

    The meat - non meat diet is just a personal preference and it has nothing to do with the famine problem that sustains in the world. To claim that meat eaters are killing people is absolute rubbish.
    There are so many different body types, so many different needs, that we have to take into consideration. We can't just negate the existence of the need to eat meat if one has it.

    Not the calculations regarding land, not the pure speculation regarding what we could use that land for, this is all complete abstraction and has nothing to do with actuality. It is an abstraction and harmful illusion to claim that land which would not be used for cattle to graze on, would be efficiently producing grain for people in Africa. This is complete rubbish and abstraction.
    We have to look at so many intricacies regarding the whole lot. How much meat do we need (if one needs it) ? Where is the meat produced ? How are the animals treated ? What is the origin, is it local ? What are the animals fed with ? Can I produce my own meat ? etc.

    For centuries human beings have been living with animals in symbiosis and people have been eating meat.
    Now, the situation has changed, most people don't have their own animals and we are dependent on industry. The industry is poisoning animals thus us, with GMO, antibiotics, hormones and such and the focus point should be here, or shouldn't it ? How to change that situation ? Change a paradigm and give an access to land to people so they can they care of their needs, without charging them thousands of fiat money maybe ?

    If people in Africa are starving (and they are) what is the real problem ? Will conversion from cattle graze to grain crop in United States help these people ? No, it will not, because it is the effect of artificially created and sustained economics and human beings are responsible for it with their compliance and conformity, not one section of dietary oriented humans. We have to focus on the real problem here, and starvation in Africa has nothing to do with you eating meat of not.

    Then again, what is the purpose of such article ? If someone names it that way, I can clearly see an intension of division and fragmentation behind that. That will only lead to differentiation thus further separation between illusive 'you' and 'me'; I'm good you are bad, I'm not eating meat and you are starving people in Africa, what a load of poppycock.

    We need to look at humanity as a whole with it's needs; meat - non meat eaters, eating rice, eating potatoes, loving chocolate, hating chocolate etc. Statement of such as the article above is oppressing for human brain, creates a notion of ones false and negates ones needs. So unless we focus on the essence, we will get distracted from the truth, that we are one and humanity will constantly loop in conflict with each other, creating more problems.
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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:49 am

    You have very good points MYself!

    This article is making a huge statement, I agree.

    But I was hoping to hear the essence and focus on that, but it is realy hard to find it, to find the common understanding and common morals, common traditions, common ethics that would apply to all humanity.

    The sad part is that humans cheat. They cheat to others, they cheat to themselves. They scream they love animals and they eat them for a dinner.

    I would tell one story, my friend's son was going to catholic sunday school and a teather once said to bring their own pets to school "We will bless them"
    The boy refused to bring his pet and parents were asked to come to school to explain their son's misbehaviour. Son's answer was "You teach to bless animals with one hand and you eat them with another"

    I am trying to understand the roots of the problem and screaming for the solution. Is it our main goal here on earth to satisfy our senses?
    Vegetarian countries call meat eaters - dog eaters. And in china it is allowed to eat dogs and cats. dont see here a division...


    I truly think that if there is no TRUE love to animals and there is no true LOVE to earth, nature, we can not be good in ECONOMICS.

    it is just my strugle to understand.

    Thanks for posting your opinion.

    I just try to understand....

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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:50 am

    Tatiana:

    Well, arguments have been made that we do not require meat for survival - we don't have the teeth nor the digestive tract we should have if we were designed as carnivores. We originally were foragers, we picked fruits, nuts, munched on leaves and roots and we followed routes that provided foods - we were nomadic people, way back before we acquired agricultural skills, before we used fire and started cooking food.

    Or so the argument goes, according to that meat eating was a later adaption.

    I hear what you are saying Myself, here we are, where do we go from here! We are faced with so many problems, starvation in some quarters, ill health in others, polluted air water and soils almost everywhere. It can feel quite overwhelming when you look at all of it.

    Food choices are personal choices. Good choices are made when adequate correct information is available on which people can base rational choices. In the end though our personal choices will impact the greater reality we all share, so these personal choices do matter!

    Many people choose vegetarianism because of health concerns or philosophical or ethical reasons and that is fine I think. I have been on both sides of the fence and as I said I like the taste of some meat, but I also like animals and when you consider how they are raised to become our nourishment - it is a disgrace! Then there is the health issue and there is much evidence that reducing the amount of meat consumed benefits us health wise. For myself that has certainly been true to the extent that lately I seem to lose my taste for meat - maybe because I do feel better when I do not eat meat!

    I think everyone has to come to their own conclusions about these issues, but it is good to have a discussion about them and share information. I would love to figure out a way so that there is no more famine in the world, yet I feel that this problem is so far outside of my own sphere of control that I am at a loss as to what to do about it that would make a real difference.





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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:50 am

    Carol:
    I read the book "One Second After" which was about an EMP strike against American and the quick deterioration of the nation in just weeks. I was so ticked off because their whole life centered around eating meat. First kill the pigs, the cattle, the horses, all the wildlife in the forests and then each other. What complete brainless idiots. What happens next when all of the animals are eaten?

    One wants to keep cows alive for milk, cheese, yogurt, butter and cream. Also the manure is used in gardens as fertilizer to grow produce.

    One wants to keep the horses alive for transportation, plowing fields, pulling wagons and their manure is even better then cows because of the PH factor.

    One wants to keep the chickens alive for eggs, they eat bugs and their poop also makes excellent compost.

    One would want to keep the people alive to work in the fields, gardens, smoke what meat comes available for long term storage as jerky and community.

    Good gad, if the world is going to going to the devil in a handbasket because one has to have meat on the table then we are in a verra, verra sorry mindset.

    Roots vegetables, beans, peas, nuts, berries.. many foods can be grown and harvested. I actually heard tell of this one man who was capsized in a boat for several months stay alive on 2 tablespoons of rice soaked in seawater and a few tablespoons of water a day. Who needs all that meat on the table at all meals.

    I just have this overwhelming driving force to get this handled sooner then later and have a thriving garden. I even have a potato patch and have other root vegetables in the ground as long term emergency food.

    Right now with all I have planted, we could not live off the land. And that is reality. All of the trees are in early stages of growth but some are finally starting to produce (papaya, banana, lemon, lime, avocado, guava, apple, pear, plum, peach, tangerine, loquat, mulberry, cinnamon, coffee, macnut, mango, fig, orange, tea, cocoa... lots of trees but very, very little to eat yet except some lemons.) There is also a pineapple patch but it fruits in summer. I am planting the salad outside the door in containers and plan on putting lots of spinach in as spinach is a power food makes great soup and one can also make thin egg/spinach pancakes to wrap up a spread in or scrambled eggs. There are many recipes where spinach can be used and we can go through it by the handfuls daily.

    So, yes we have stored food, but when that runs out then what? I just think we need to be learning how to provide and store food for ourselves sooner then later as well.



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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:51 am

    Pheryll:
    I understand the positions on both sides of the equation. My points are these.

    1) not everyone has to agree to co-exist. Different culture can co-exist as long as they don't step on each others toes.... contrary to popoular opinion, there is still plenty of room here not counting our expansion to out there so to speak.

    2) Life begets life. We consume life to live ourselves. Whether it be plant or animal life it is still life, plants respond to emotions and music so what makes them less important to protect than animals? I'll tell you, its nothing but opinion. Where you draw the line personally. That is what it should be, a personal decision, when you start telling others that they HAVE to live a certain way then you cross the line in my book.

    3) We have grain crunchin teeth and "canines" so I see us as being adapted to eating either as we see fit.
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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:53 am

    How humans are not physically created to eat meat

    Although some historians and anthropologists say that man is historically omnivorous, our anatomical equipment ­ teeth, jaws, and digestive system ­ favors a fleshless diet. The American Dietetic Association notes that "most of mankind for most of human history has lived on vegetarian or near-vegetarian diets."

    And much of the world still lives that way. Even on most industrialized countries, the love affair with meat is less than a hundred years old. It started with the refrigerator car and the twentieth-century consumer society. But even with the twentieth century, man's body hasn't adapted to eating meat. The prominent Swedish scientist Karl von Linne states, "Man's structure, external and internal, compared with that of the other animals, shows that fruit and succulent vegetables constitute his natural food." The chart below compares the anatomy of man with that of carnivorous and herbivorous animals.

    When you look at the comparison between herbivores and humans, we compare much more closely to herbivores than meat eating animals. Humans are clearly not designed to digest and ingest meat.

    Meat-eaters: have claws
    Herbivores: no claws
    Humans: no claws

    Meat-eaters: have no skin pores and perspire through the tongue
    Herbivores: perspire through skin pores
    Humans: perspire through skin pores

    Meat-eaters: have sharp front teeth for tearing, with no flat molar teeth for grinding
    Herbivores: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding
    Humans: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding

    Meat-eaters: have intestinal tract that is only 3 times their body length so that rapidly decaying meat can pass through quickly
    Herbivores: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.
    Humans: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.

    Meat-eaters: have strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat
    Herbivores: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater
    Humans: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater

    Meat-eaters: salivary glands in mouth not needed to pre-digest grains and fruits.
    Herbivores: well-developed salivary glands which are necessary to pre-digest grains and fruits
    Humans: well-developed salivary glands, which are necessary to pre-digest, grains and fruits

    Meat-eaters: have acid saliva with no enzyme ptyalin to pre-digest grains
    Herbivores: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains
    Humans: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains
    Based on a chart by A.D. Andrews, Fit Food for Men, (Chicago: American Hygiene Society, 1970)


    Clearly if humans were meant to eat meat we wouldn't have so many crucial ingestive/digestive similarities with animals that are herbivores.

    Many people ask me, "If we weren't supposed to eat meat than why do we?". It is because we are conditioned to eat meat. Also, the ADA (American Dietetic Association) tells us that "most of mankind for most of human history has lived on a vegetarian or Lacto-ovo vegetarian diet.

    A popular statement that meat eaters say is; "In the wild, animals kill other animals for food. It's nature." First of all, we are not in the wild. Secondly, we can easily live without eating meat and killing, not to mention we'd be healthier. And finally, as I have already shown, we weren't meant to eat meat. Meat and seafood putrefies within 4 hours after consumption and the remnants cling to the walls of the stomach and intestines for 3-4 days or longer than if a person is constipated. Furthermore, the reaction of saliva in humans is more alkaline, whereas in the case of flesh-eating or preying animals, it is clearly acidic. The alkaline saliva does not act properly on meat.

    The final point I would like to make on how we as humans were not meant to eat meat is this. All omnivorous and carnivorous animals eat their meat raw. When a lion kills an herbivore for food, it tears right into the stomach area to eat the organs that are filled with blood (nutrients). While eating the stomach, liver, intestine, etc., the lion laps the blood in the process of eating the dead animals flesh. Even bears that are omnivores eat salmon raw. However, eating raw or bloody meat disgust us as humans. Therefore, we must cook it and season it to buffer the taste of flesh.

    If a deer is burned in a forest fire, a carnivorous animal will NOT eat its flesh. Even circus lions have to be feed raw meat so that they will not starve to death. If humans were truly meant to eat meat, then we would eat all of our meat raw and bloody. The thought of eating such meat makes one’s stomach turn. This is my point on how we as humans are conditioned to believe that animal flesh is good for us and that we were meant to consume it for survival and health purposes. If we are true carnivores or omnivores, cooking our meat and seasoning it with salt, ketchup, or tabasco sauce would disguise and we as humans would refuse to eat our meat in this form.
    Source
    http://www.celestialhealing.net/physicalveg3.htm
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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:54 am

    anomalous cowherd:
    One of my friends is an interdimensional traveller, I kid you not. He is a vegan and sometimes comes to my house. I honestly don't quite know what to do with him food wise especially in winter.

    Well, I do try and one time he came to eat I also made a spinach and goats cheese pie for my self and another friend. He somewhat laughingly put his hands on my shoulders and said he was going to try and drain off my negative karma for the cheese eating. Whoah! good thing he didn't look in the fridge and see the morroccan lamb dish from the day before.
    His take on meat is the same creed posted above by Devakas and he also claims Jesus as one of his (and my) own kind from the Sirius star system.

    I was vegetarian for around 20 years and just felt I needed to eat meat occasionally to be more grounded. I have no earth astrologically.
    I live by the coast and eat fish and feel no moral problem with that. Contrary to what the govt would have people believe there are plenty of fish in the sea still. I don't want anyone telling me what is spiritually correct. We don't eat much meat and I think it will become less so, but it has to come from inside.

    In a strange way I feel like we might be preparing for food shortages any which way and almost feel like I am stocking up my body with some heavier proteins.

    BTW I have one friend who has a new boyfriend who is vegetarian apart from the 1 deer he kills every hunting season. I had not seen for over a year since this began and was a bit shocked to see how tired she is all the time, I mean she falls asleep mid conversation. She thinks her diet is perfect. No animals are killed but seems her brain cells might be. I don't know, just an observation. Weirdly enough she is OBSESSED by food.
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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:00 am

    5 senses

    IMO if we will not purify our bodies, we will not have a pure mind.
    If we do not have a pure mind, our mind will be driven to satisfy our 5 materialistic senses. ......
    nose - smell,
    tongue - taste,
    ear - hear,
    eyes - see,
    hand - touch.
    Our mind can be either our friend or our enemy.
    It may make us go wild to buy the most expensive perfume just to satisfy the bodily sense to smell.
    If our intelligence allows, our mind may become obsessed with food or even kill just to satisfy our bodily sense to taste.
    Our mind may drive us to other country just to hear good concert (done here) and to satisfy our bodily sense to hear.
    Our wild mind may take us to the far places just to see oceans or mountains and satisfy our bodily sense to see.
    The fifth touch sense is most unpredictable in the bodily satisfaction drama and if our mind is our enemy, this touch sence often leads to lust, feelings and modes , which may bring troubles and unhappiness forever....

    In Vedic literature 5 senses are nicely described as the chariot with 5 horses and a mind in the driver's seat. Above in the chariot queen intelligence is sitting. It is up to her how she drives the mind and how much her ego is concurred. Mind is always disturbed by material world and is always wondering and ready to go after one or another of the 5 horses.
    Only when a person who uses his intelligence to control the mind to disattach from the materialistic desires, and then his mind will use his control over the bodily senses, only then the temporary, fake illusion of happiness will become eternal love and eternal happiness.

    Only when we can surpass our ego, when we can find our identity as a selfless soul - me, then we can say we are happy. It is eternal, not related to the matter and gross 5 senses.

    Otherwise the ego creates greed, anger, desires of temporary glory, wars, killing others, killing for satisfaction, destruction of harmony....

    I hope I got my point across...

    ......and the choice is always within all of us
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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:01 am

    Anomalous cowherd, I like your awareness of crazy things some people do...

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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:01 am

    Pheryllt, you are right that it is a personal decision...

    Quote:"Whether it be plant or animal life it is still life, plants respond to emotions and music so what makes them less important to protect than animals? I'll tell you, its nothing but opinion. "

    IMO when we eat an apple, we do not kill the apple tree., or bees if we eat only honey, or cow if we drink only milk....

    I know we were never taught of mastery education about nature, and it is sad, dont you think so?

    with love

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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:03 am

    Rozzy:

    Devakis, we have to live today and can not return to the past what ever that maybe.

    The reason there are starving people is because of greedy no good governments and the people that run them, there is no food shortage, just a shortage of good people at the top to do what is right.
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    Post  devakas on Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:03 am

    QUOTE (Carol @ Mar 27 2010, 01:44 AM)
    I read the book "One Second After" which was about an EMP strike against American and the quick deterioration of the nation in just weeks. I was so ticked off because their whole life centered around eating meat. First kill the pigs, the cattle, the horses, all the wildlife in the forests and then each other. What complete brainless idiots. What happens next when all of the animals are eaten?

    ...
    (papaya, banana, lemon, lime, avocado, guava, apple, pear, plum, peach, tangerine, loquat, mulberry, cinnamon, coffee, macnut, mango, fig, orange, tea, cocoa...
    Carol, what a paradise you are creating!!
    ....(papaya, banana, lemon, lime, avocado, guava, apple, pear, plum, peach, tangerine, loquat, mulberry, cinnamon, coffee, macnut, mango, fig, orange, tea, cocoa...

    Some facts to consider... Mistsofavalon_thumbsup Some facts to consider... Mistsofavalon_thumbsup Some facts to consider... Mistsofavalon_thumbsup
    Devakas

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