Glacier View Responses
Continued From Previous Post:
http://atoday.org/glacier-view-a-retrospective/
milton hook
August 15, 2016 at 10:42 pm
I lived through the controversies of the 1970s and 80s. I witnessed some influential church administrators and ministers exercise duplicity, treachery towards peers, immorality, egotism, hatred of gospel preachers, back-stabbing and hypocrisy. They reminded me of the Sanhedrin in Christ’s time. I felt very uncomfortable. I sensed an alien spirit. I avoided them and occupied myself with independent study. At the same time Des was accused of:
1. Total rejection of Ellen White
2. Antinomianism
3. Being an advocate of the once-saved-always-saved theory
4. Being duped by the theology of Professor F F Bruce
5. Dishonesty
6. Being a Jesuit
7. Being in league with Brinsmead to bring down the SDA church
8. Being an ignoramus or novice
9. Not being a real Christian
I have known Des for 55 years. All of these accusations are utterly false, perpetuated by a modern sanhedrin that often shows its hand in this thread. I understand why some in the church wish that the gospelers would exit via the back door. Precedent suggests that those who profess to be the “chosen race” and love to recite the law have often stoned the prophets. Hatred is a soul-destroying cannibal. But the gospel can rescue murderers like Saul/Paul and the grand larcenist on the Cross. Who knows, it may even extend to Judas who was utterly remorseful and apparently repented. Let’s not play God.
Yawei
August 18, 2016 at 6:03 am
Thank you Milton. Beautiful and honest words from one who actually knows Des. We pray Father God forgive them for each troubled soul who take the gift of Life from God and them repay God by ignoring God’s command in Matthew 28:19,20 to take Good News to all who thirst and instead spend their energy casting stones at those obeying God’s call as Des continues to faithfully do in his 88th orbit of the sun.
Yawei
August 18, 2016 at 6:06 am
Typos corrected: Thank you Milton. Beautiful and honest words from one who actually knows Des. We pray to our Father God, forgive them, for each troubled soul who takes the gift of Life from God, and then repays God by ignoring God’s command, in Matthew 28:19,20, to take Good News to all who thirst, and instead spend their energy casting stones at those, who are passionately obeying God’s gospel call, as Des continues to faithfully do, in his 88th orbit of the sun.
Hansen
August 15, 2016 at 11:31 pm
Just to clarify something I posted somewhere, “God be merciful to me a sinner” is going to work better than “Bring it on” when my name comes up in judgment.
Jim Hamstra
August 16, 2016 at 1:58 am
Amen! “God help me” and God be merciful to me a sinner” are two of my most frequent prayers.
Serge Agafonoff
August 16, 2016 at 2:27 am
Hansen, I think you’ve just provided a context into which this little-discussed (in these boards anyway) principle of Christianity can be mentioned. I think one of the reasons the IJ is such a heresy is because your name never comes up in any judgement after the first one, ie, the light of Christ himself. Simply because, ‘you’ are dead! You no longer live! It is not you! but Christ who lives in you. It is Christ in you the hope of glory. You have already appeared before the judgement seat of Christ, you have died with him, you have recevied the gift of his life and henceforth you no longer exist. To be sure, you die daily. You do not resurrect daily. Christ abides in you through the power of his endless life. If you feel or fear there is another judgement to which you will come, it is because you have not actually taken up your cross and died to your old self. This is why the IJ crowd are so trepidatious of the outcome. And why they need to gather so many comforters about themselves, hypnotised that they are not ready. Repetition of the words ‘get ready, get ready’ subconsciously translates to the mind as ‘woe is me, I’m not ready.’ The end result of such fearful unreadiness is SDAism. Let’s hope this assurance of Life in Christ as taught by Ford, and many since, will help to lift the ‘cloud of unknowing’ from the collective mind of Adventism. Bring THAT on!
Serge Agafonoff
August 16, 2016 at 4:30 am
That first sentence is extremely obtuse/unclear/misleading. Let me try again. Your (Hansen/Serge/any committed Christian) name does not come up in the IJ, if there is such a thing. Because by this stage, that old ego which used ot be called Hansen/Serge/any true Xn does not exist. They are dead. See Rom 5. They have been confronted with teh Christ, stood before ‘teh judgement seat of teh personal Christ, been illumined by the Light which comes into the world, to judge the world. They recognise that in themselves they are dead. They take up their cross, surrendering their old man/egoic/selfish nature to its natural state – death. they recognise the need for this death as the due wages of sin. But in that surrender, they also accept the Gift of God… the Life of Christ. Henceforth, only Christ exists, in them. I am crucified with Christ…. I rise with Christ (here, in this so-called life). Christ lives, in me. This is the divine modus operadi of salvation. It happens Today. There is no fearful looking for a day of judgement for these believers. If there is an IJ, the only name of relevance to them which will come up is the name Christ. And we already know the outcome of that.
Conviction
August 16, 2016 at 5:54 am
Serge, we Love you, but I would ask; why are you here? Understand we love your opinion (maybe less than we Love you); but are you the theologian or historian here to save us? Remember in the bigger picture we are a Body; from outside, to milk, to meat and in some cases back outside. You point out that satan is a great deceiver in intent above; should we not watch out for each other? In all honesty, do you not preach the approach of and as an individual; in many cases demanding, entitled and privileged? Expecting HIS Love and Gifts; without appreciation? Revelations 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. We know there will be no power in the second death for those that are chosen and belong to HIM; but you miss the whole part of belonging to HIM. To praise HIS Gifts and do HIS Works to start with and back is Love; for HIM.
Conviction
August 16, 2016 at 5:57 am
If we are busy in HIS Works, we are toooo busy to have fear. If we have HIS Faith we know where we are going. If we have HIS Grace and Spirit we are in the comfort of his Loving Hands. Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. How do you work out your salvation in demand and privilege; instead of fear and trembling? 2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. We know we will appear before HIS judgment seat, whether it be good or bad. Where do you and those like you ever persuade men, knowing the terror of the LORD? Where is your terror of the LORD? Again, does this not sound like a child, I am privileged, demanding and I am going to stomp my foot until I get to Heaven; wouldn’t hold my breath on that one.
Conviction
August 16, 2016 at 6:10 am
1 Thessalonians 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. 12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; 13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. And be at peace among yourselves 14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men. 15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men. 16 Rejoice evermore. 17 Pray without ceasing. 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. 19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings. 21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. We miss this, where did it go? What happened? 1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful…
William Noel
August 16, 2016 at 6:33 am
Conviction, If we’re busy doing God’s works, our deeds speak more loudly than our mouths. Talking was the least of God’s instructions to us after a whole lot of doing. So, when are you going to start following His priorities?
Conviction
August 16, 2016 at 7:29 am
Mark 1:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. I follow HIS first priority; in Loving HIM with all my Love, all my soul, all my mind and all my strength, with nothing left, HE wants it all. HE provides back sufficient in Love, mind and strength then to help others in the Second Commandment. That is HIS priority. Where is your praise for HIM? How can you lead anyone to HIM without such? There is no gospel or path of William. You miss the First Commandment.
William Noel
August 16, 2016 at 7:51 am
Conviction, Why do you demand of others what you appear unable to do yourself? Where is YOUR praise to God? All you do is cut-and-paste Bible texts with the apparent intent of condemning others for what you perceive as their sins and make wild exhortations about Him. But you never share anything praising God for how He is working in your life. So where is YOUR praise to God? Are you demanding from others what you are unable to do because He is not working in your life? That’s a big message in your words.
Conviction
August 16, 2016 at 8:27 am
Are you blind? “I follow HIS first priority; in Loving HIM with all my Love, all my soul, all my mind and all my strength, with nothing left, HE wants it all.” While we are very humbled and gracious just to have our names written in the Book; you demand. While we are unworthy, incapable and useless we are humbled to be able to serve HIM; you demand and claim in privilege. While we Love the Scripture and the closeness it brings to HIM and us; you hate it and demand interpretation, because it does not fit in your own little self personal world. While we worship and reverence HIM; you assume to be HIM. While we are very thankful for HIS Gifts; you lay stake and claim on them. While we denied ourselves and took up our cross; you claim yourself and The Cross. While we are part of the Body; you seem unable to find the Body. While we Love; you have not figured out what Love is. While we found HIM, by loosing ourselves; you keep searching yourself. While we gave up the world; you latched on. While we gave up ourselves; you gave in. And yet you accuse us of making wild exhortations about HIM? We demanded nothing; but HE does. We only pointed it out to you. You serve no one but yourself; then blame everyone. We Love you.
William Noel
August 16, 2016 at 9:36 am
Conviction, If you love someone, why do you persist in making such wild, blatantly false and continuous accusations against a person whom you have never met and about whom you know virtually nothing? How does attacking others draw anyone to Him?
Conviction
August 16, 2016 at 9:45 am
William, I am definitely not the best at helping you through this (or in anything); but I am here. I have never had the curse of privilege. I have always had to rely on HIM and know where everything comes from. I know those sent to help and know where they came from. HE provides everything. I am blessed and know where those blessing come from; I never had privilege of not knowing where they came from. HE has always told me to go do things and I always think how is this going to happen; but HE always makes a way. HE always send others to help and the things that are needed. I have never been able to rely on myself for or in anything; therefore I know I cannot do anything without HIM. I have never thought of or could look at myself as alone. I have always been a part of something else; HIM and others. Maybe someone else can explain better or give some help?
William Noel
August 16, 2016 at 10:45 am
Conviction, Please explain how attacking others reflects the love of Christ to them. How does merely saying that you know where blessings come from praise God when you share nothing about what He has done? Apparently some of the people you so freely accuse of not knowing or obeying God have a bit more experience with HIM because they speak of HIM without accusing others. Unlike you, the people whom Jesus accused of disobeying HIM were those who were attacking HIM for loving sinners and drawing them into salvation.
Yawei
August 18, 2016 at 6:09 am
Conviction it is time for you to follow Des’ example for us which I have closely observed Des to faithfully live in his life of being hard on himself and being easy on others. Judge not lest ye be …
Conviction
August 16, 2016 at 11:15 am
How is Loving you attacking you? HE does everything. You speak and offer yourself as everything; as we offer HE who is everything. You have no idea of what obedience is. That is not your parents fault; you did that all on your own. That is the worlds fault and the Church within the worlds fault; we take accountability and responsibility for both. You are not CHRIST; don’t ever think you are even close. Where is your reverence for HIM? Where is your love for HIM? Nowhere to be found. You can’t even say it; well less mean and do it.
William Noel
August 16, 2016 at 12:15 pm
Conviction, You are not loving, you are just attacking. There are no examples in scripture of God attacking and accusing as you have been doing, so you are not behaving as HE does. When have I ever said that I thought of myself as “everything?” That’s another false accusation you have invented out of thin air. Where in scripture do you find the authority to accuse others of not knowing how to obey HIM? Perhaps you’ve forgotten Paul’s warning in Romans 2:1 where he wrote, “…you have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.” Take a hint: if you want others to stop judging you, first stop accusing them. No, I’m not Christ and have never made any such claim, yet you dare to raise such a blasphemous accusation and expect others to be tolerant. So far as I know, you and I have never met, so where do you find evidence that I do not reverence HIM? Your persistence in accusing reminds me of Paul’s observation in Titus 1:12 where he said, “Cretans are always liars, evil brutes…” Are you a Cretan? You sure don’t sound like a Christian.
Conviction
August 16, 2016 at 1:32 pm
Matthew 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. Did you not exalt your own self? Hey, without HIM I am a piece of trash and know it. Is that sufficient in authority? I do not pass judgement on anyone; HE does that. Romans 2:5 “But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;” Romans 2:9 “8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,” We have Love, you have wrath and keep raising your head; but say nothing. Nothing for HIM? Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake. I am worse than a Cretan without HIM; but I am a Christian with HIM. And you still cannot give HIM praise or reverence. You need to get yourself out of the picture William, before you lead you and others down a path you definitely do not wish to be. I give HIM all the praise, honor and glory; for without HIM I am nothing. Are you man enough to do the same?
Art Berard
August 16, 2016 at 11:38 am
I like William Noel’s comment “If we’re busy doing God’s works, our deeds speak more loudly than our mouths.” During the years leading up to and following Glacier View I saw the results of actions against Dr. Ford, and for many people (including some of our family members and friends) those results were not good. In the the years to follow Glacier View Dr. Ford conducted himself as a Christian gentleman in his public life trying to bring others to Christ. “By their fruits” you’ll know them.
Hansen
August 17, 2016 at 3:32 am
Art, I once discussed Dr. Ford’s gospel teachings with a nearly retired SDA pastor. “I don’t want his teachings around this church,” he said. “My niece listened to him and ran wild, got involved in immorality, caused a lot of problems.” Pastor, I said~, “The gospel didn’t make your niece immoral, you should know that.” He didn’t want Luther’s teachings [“Christian Liberty,” gospel sermons from Wittenberg] around his church either. Old time legalism worked for him. You can be as immoral as you like, just don’t act it out, or get caught if you do. Another old conference worker told me that people who felt the convincing power of the HS when listening to Dr. Ford were actually being deceived by rhetorical tricks he learned during his first Phd program. Strange, strange indeed. Your tithe $$$ at work.
Conviction
August 16, 2016 at 1:04 pm
“If we’re busy doing God’s works, our deeds speak more loudly than our mouths.” Luke 2:49 “And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?” That is a great question without an answer. Are you doing GOD’s Work? Looks like you are here posting; yet saying nothing about the FATHER. Right now all we see is the authority of the Church being applied and the rebellious still complaining 35 years later. So the views that Des held were more important than all the rest of us? At least in your eyes? Maybe you hold a little bias of and in the teachings of your family? Was he not given the chance to change? What did you wish to change here; or was it just to interfere? Did he change? You seem to wish to stand for the underdog. Maybe if you step out of the way, HE can grow the underdog? Allowing others to learn from HIM; just as Des did from what you state. But you don’t want to seem to give them that chance.
William Noel
August 16, 2016 at 1:36 pm
Conviction, Oh, so we have to say something about the FATHER to avoid being judged by you? Where in scripture do you find that requirement? Show us chapter and verse. But just to satisfy you: The FATHER loves me, so HE forgives me instead of hurling a never-ending stream of condemnations at me and others as you have been doing. What evidence do you have the I am standing in God’s way? You have no evidence, so you are a liar. What do Des Ford’s teachings have to do with your wild accusations? I did not say that I agreed with him, but that I owed him a debt of gratitude because he forced me to study as I had not before and to not just accept things as true because someone claimed that it was so. Had I continued in my old ways I might be agreeing with you instead of disputing your wild falsehoods.
Conviction
August 16, 2016 at 2:19 pm
Luke 12:5 “But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.” Yes the FATHER Loves you enough to forgive you. Yes HE Loves you enough to not hurl you into the abyss. Where is the fear and reverence in that? You do not own HIS Love, but HE does own your fear and respect. Hebrews 12:28 “Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:” Evidence in absolute; you are your own witness. You demand the Kingdom, without meeting the requirements. But you are working in the right direction, in humility for HIS Gifts. Psalms 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever. I did not state that you said anything about Des or his teachings. Not everything is about or for you. Did you wish to use Des and blame him as a scapegoat and stumbling block? After his removal? I don’t know how good of an excuse that might be? I don’t know if there will be any excuses; but in my opinion, I doubt it.
William Noel
August 16, 2016 at 3:59 pm
Conviction, You accuse me of demanding the Kingdom without meeting the requirements? What evidence do you have of that? None, because you’re just throwing-out falsehoods because you neither know truth or respect others. Do you know anything about God’s gifts? Are you ministering in HIS power using the gifts of the Holy Spirit? I am. So I can tell you from my experience with the changes God has made in me that a person who makes such wild accusations as you’ve been throwing around without hesitation marks you not as a follower of God, but one who is under the control of Satan. Des Ford isn’t the issue here: it is you falsely accusing others while claiming to speak with the authority of God. That is the blasphemy that Jesus declared in Mark 3:29 would not be forgiven. Let’s see you get around that truth HE declared.
Conviction
August 16, 2016 at 6:22 pm
And once again, no reverence or praise for HIM. You asked for the Scripture and it was quoted; for it is written. I never said Des’s gospel teachings were an issue at GV or here. I have no idea why you brought it up. You command the Holy Spirit and condemn us to blasphemy because we Love you; because I Love you? Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: For me to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit would be to blaspheme HIM. That would mean you are GOD?
Hansen
August 16, 2016 at 4:47 pm
I was unaware that point 9 regarding justification was an issue at Glacier View. Gerhard Pfandl’s talk at the ATS meeting on RBF a few years ago specifically stated that Dr. Ford’s gospel teaching as not an issue at GV. It is entirely possible, even likely, that the real hatred for Dr. Ford was the result of his teaching on justification. It’s laughable to think that administrators really cared what EGW said about much of anything except tithing. Regardless of platitudes to the contrary, SDAs believe that people are saved by faith plus works i.e., commandment [Decalogue] keeping.
Ervin Taylor
August 16, 2016 at 10:24 pm
Contrary to an initial reaction, may I now suggest that we should welcome the postings of Mr. S. and “Conviction” on the AT web site. Why? Despite the often strange and off-center approach to theological topics projected by these two individuals, what they post here allows the rest of us to gain some insights and appreciation of what the dominant ethos of Adventism in North America was like in the decades from about 1920 to 1950. For those interested in the history of Adventism, just reading their postings will allow an observer to realize how much has changed when we compare the statements of Mr. S and “Conviction” and contrast those postings with what is being posted by those representing a newly emerged 21st Century Neo-Adventism, a “big tent” Adventism which points toward the future.
Jim Hamstra
August 17, 2016 at 6:47 am
“what they post here allows the rest of us to gain some insights and appreciation of what the dominant ethos of Adventism in North America was like in the decades from about 1920 to 1950”. Dr. Taylor, I remember the 1950s very clearly. And I have read many SDA writings from earlier times. I submit that you have unfairly represented the “dominant ethos” of Adventism from those decades. There certainly were demagogues then as there are now. And no doubt there were those who hurled vile epithets then as now. But such were not the majority, certainly not the “dominant ethos” as you claim. You seem to gloat over the interminable sparring between the “gladiators” representing the varying extremes of Adventism and ex-Adventism. None of these truly represent mainstream Adventism either today or in prior generations.
Hansen
August 17, 2016 at 1:10 am
LOL, Erv, I was just thinking Bill S should be banned.
Bill Sorensen
August 17, 2016 at 12:10 pm
“LOL, Erv, I was just thinking Bill S should be banned.” Of course, Glen. Then you could just go on giving yourselves massive affirmation in your false teaching, and everyone would be happy. Of course, Dr. Taylor is smart enough to know the forum is boring enough and only some real challenge to your false doctrine can stimulate some discussion. You all hope EGW taught “legalism” so you can justify your rejection of her ministry. But she never taught your false accusations and there is not a shred of evidence to support your false allegations. But of course you don’t care. You just go on and on in your delusion and hope you can “pull it off” in the end. NOT. More and more people will see the delusion Dr. Ford advocated, just like people eventually saw the error of John Calvin’s “unconditional election” as he also wrested the gospel from the bible and put his on convoluted idea of how it should be applied. Your errors won’t hold water for any honest bible student who can easily and clearly see there is a “judgment according to works” that will determine who is going to be saved, and who is not.
Yawei
August 18, 2016 at 6:18 am
Bill I believe an honest man like you would surely have discovered after all your wonderful years of study, that works are definitely a fruit, and never a root of salvation, unless like Jesus you have been perfect and without sin continuously since birth. Am I right about your discovery Brother William?
William Noel
August 18, 2016 at 10:34 am
Yawei, You are SO right! I don’t do good works to be saved, but to reflect the amazing, incredible love of God that has worked in my life to save me and that continues working in me to keep on changing me and using me to spread His love to others. I have the blessing of leading a volunteer ministry at my church called the Angel Team. We focus on helping people with home-related challenges, both large and small. Over the 11 years I’ve been doing that ministry, I have seen God work in amazing ways and knowing that He has chosen to work through me to bless others is both humbling and fills me with amazement at such love. One great blessing I get from time to time is hearing someone praising God for the blessing they received through our ministry and even that they have gone from hating God to loving Him because of the love they were shown through our work. Along the way I have developed a close relationship with the Holy Spirit and there is such an intimacy there that I wish greatly for others to recognize the reality of the Holy Spirit, to let Him work in them to empower them and for the, to discover the ministry He has for them to do. If they do, I know we’ll need a whole lot of time in eternity to celebrate what we’ve seen God do. My friend, may the Lord continue blessing you richly!
Conviction
August 17, 2016 at 5:09 am
Yes, from HIS Words we know what will happen. Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. The big tent will be here soon enough; and we seem to want to fight to make sure that happens. “The gospel didn’t make your niece immoral, you should know that.”. Such a Truth, the Gospel does not preach immorality; but false prophets do. Lutheran doctrine did not preach liberty to sin, but liberty from sin; and to observe the commandments. I would say go pray your sins away; but that would determent our brothers who have grown past such; as we wax worse. A sad state in remnants of HIM.
Conviction
August 17, 2016 at 5:36 am
My wife and daughters, and in their vast network of friends and demonstrations within the Body, all plead the same. You make their jobs vastly more complicated and difficult. Why are the old paths so bad; when we are suppose to seek the old paths and things that work? If you lack the man parts to preach that sin is sin; how can you do anything but drive the nails in further? If you are unable to preach go and sin no more; how can you be like or representative of HIM? If your philosophies or derivations or ideologies do not meet these Simple Truths; how can they be of HIM? With the pouring out I have seen lately, you probably should expect to start hearing these things. I have seen many told lately get over it, grow up and help or get out of the way; and definitely not from Church leadership. You may hear it from your sons and daughters. As Erv states I am pretty old fashion in Stand and I hear it from many; including mine. Can you not grow a set and take care of the problem, or are you going to leave it for us to fix. Think about that one and the world you are leaving for them. maybe that will put things into the perspective of Love.
William Noel
August 17, 2016 at 5:53 am
Conviction, You have reverted once again to your habitually obtuse and wildly general screeds against anything and everything you imagine is wrong while giving us nothing specific to which we can respond. If, as you seem to imagine, you are some sort of prophet whom God has sent to call the church to repentance, how are we to know how to respond when you talk about “old ways?” What are the “old ways” of which you speak? Whom do you accuse of not calling on people to “go and sin no more?” How are they not doing it? What evidence do you have that our “philosophies or deriviations or ideologies do not mee these Simple Truths?” What are the “Simple Truths” of which you speak? Don’t just talk about them, give us specifics. My experience has been that when someone comes into the church who speaks as you do, that trouble quickly abounds because it is not the spirit of God that has arrived, but of demons who are sowing discord in the Body of Christ and a church that was once thriving and growing in God’s love soon is splintered and dying. Sometimes that person was just seriously mentally ill, but on two occasions there were possessed by demons. While I hope neither is your condition, you leave me few other possible conclusions.
Jim Hamstra
August 17, 2016 at 6:31 am
“If you lack the man parts to preach that sin is sin; how can you do anything but drive the nails in further?” Seriously “Conviction”, do you really envision Jesus Christ or Ellen White addressing even the vilest sinners in such a manner? Do you really believe that your own wife and daughters would approve of such trash talk? “You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.” “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.”
Conviction
August 17, 2016 at 7:32 am
Isaiah 32:8 But the liberal deviseth liberal things; and by liberal things shall he stand. 9 Rise up, ye women that are at ease; hear my voice, ye careless daughters; give ear unto my speech. 10 Many days and years shall ye be troubled, ye careless women: for the vintage shall fail, the gathering shall not come. 11 Tremble, ye women that are at ease; be troubled, ye careless ones: strip you, and make you bare, and gird sackcloth upon your loins. They are told to rise. We gave them no option. You seem to support some when you want without justification; but not support others in justification? Then plead justification in your forbearance of Love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness or self-control? Is that not the Simple Truth.
Conviction
August 17, 2016 at 6:50 am
And once again, no reverence for HIM. I cannot do everything for that, some things HE expects from you. But I give our FATHER praise and thanks for looking down and remembering us unworthy. And once again, Psalms 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever. From remembrance, and once again, the Word on seeking the old ways. Jeremiah 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein. William, are you the problem? Do you reverence HIM to even begin wisdom? Search HIS Word for HIM; not you? It is easy to send others down the wide gate; but we know where that leads. But do you not interfere with those attempting to guided them to the narrow gate; that few will find (Matthew 7)? Then do you promote those ideologies to others; only making it more difficult for everyone else? Questions to think about. Us mentally ill, discord sowing and demon possessed (by your definitions) servants Love you. We think there is much potential; prove us right. HIS reverence and Word are a good place to start. Not just thanking HIM for the Gifts given you; but real reverence. Not searching the Word for you; but actually seeking HIM and answers. Then you would know who those, that tell you otherwise represent.
Bugs/Larry Boshell
August 17, 2016 at 7:09 am
Conviction, whomever you are, anonymous to God also, I speculate (in jest), you say: “Why are the old paths so bad; when we are supposed to seek the old paths and things that work?” They old ways are defunct and you don’t seem to know it. Why are the lemmings leaving? The old ways don’t work. Let’s review the reasons. Overall, old Adventism is self-absorbed in a sound proof chamber without windows. Prophetical Adventism was DOA. The prophecies weren’t really prophecies. The interpreters and proponents were totally wrong. Christ hasn’t returned. The “signs of the times” have been the same for thousands of years. Ellen was a decent person but not a good or unique” prophet. There is no persecution by the “papacy” for Sabbath keeping and none on the infinite horizon. The Sabbath was meant for Israelites. Three angels message is a template pasted over meaninglessness. If Adventists were a “chosen” people by God (actually, a face saving, self-promotion proclamation), he was a bum that them down. Adventist schools are fizzling as brainwashers and guardians of the young. Just to name a few etched tombstone eulogies. Neo-Adventism survives because it has abandoned its past disasters. It is developing a new reason to exist in the future. The old paths don’t work, blocked by irremovable debris. C???????ion the good old days have left you in the dustbin of Adventism. Grieve bravely. Where grief abounds, so does weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth! RIP!
Conviction
August 17, 2016 at 7:44 am
You forget one thing maybe Bugs; HIM?
Bugs/Larry Boshell
August 17, 2016 at 8:57 am
C???????ion. Sorry, nothing to forget! Who Him, not you? Anyway, you failed to answer my assertions, which is normal for people who can’t defend intellectually or honestly the insolvency of old Adventism! The “Him” whom I assume you are referencing (not yourself) had nothing to do with Adventism, now or then, I proposed. Why do you insist on retreating to discredited teachings and doctrines as if that is the hope for the reclamation of Adventism? The past is the Wailing Wall of Adventism. Perhaps better said as the WFofA “Wailing Foundations of Adventism!”
Conviction
August 17, 2016 at 9:24 am
So you are judge, jury and executioner; of all within your own created classifications? No i am not HE; neither does HE fit in your little pocket. The Denomination is growing faster than ever; yet we are failing. Actually in areas; I will give you that. But is that not your fault and motive? Do you have another Denomination you should be worrying about; or do you just wish to tear others down? Hopefully you do not wish to tear HIM down; or think that you no longer need HIM. I did not answer your question; because it was not a question. You pose your own answers. Which discredited teachings and Doctrines do you refer to? Or do you just wish to pose more of your own answers? Come on Bugs, we Love you.
Stephen Foster
August 18, 2016 at 3:49 pm
Ah, my man Bugs is at it again; scoffing away in the prophetic spirit of 2 Peter 3:4. Bugs, do you suppose that since, in your view, everything has pretty much remained “the same for thousands of years” (as in verse 4), are things likely to continue as they are for another thousand years; or do you suppose that things will actually get better? Do you believe that “the Lord is [actually] slack concerning his promise” to return; or is it perhaps possible that He is actually “unwilling that any should perish…”? Given what we are witnessing in the world from day to day, it would appear that it is you who lives in a private echo chamber (…as a result of a traumatized history perhaps). In all seriousness, if you can’t see that the world is a significantly more dangerous place than it was even in your own traumatic youth; then you might consider paying closer attention. I’m just sayin’…
William Noel
August 17, 2016 at 8:21 am
Conviction, “Who is this that darkens my counsel by words without knowledge?” Job 38:2 How, exactly, do you measure reverence for HIM? Or, the failure to do so? Tell us so we will know what you are talking about. How do you measure wisdom? Who authorized you to measure others and condemn those who fall short in your view? On what basis do you charge that others are not studying HIS WORD? For your information, I do search HIS WORD and what I find there is a very different God than you seem to be imagining. HE does not make wild accusations against me or allow me to make such charges against others. Where do you find God authorizing you to treat others with such gross disrespect? Remember, you don’t know me. So, on what basis do you make your claims? Apparently you have forgotten the admonition of Paul in Romans, chapter 2 about you accusing others when you are doing the same things. Is that not a truth simple enough for you to understand? Yet you persist in accusing without detailing the basis for your accusations. Is that not clear evidence of dementia?
Conviction
August 17, 2016 at 9:15 am
Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? Who was it that did all these things? That is the measure of reverence. Wisdom comes from HIM and based on the first question. If you search the Word; why do you not find? I do not judge your Soul as in Romans 2; I actually have Hope and state you have a lot of potential. This actually leans toward judging as good; which is just as bad. Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way. Am I not to point out the stumblingblocks that others have placed in your way; even in Love? Is absolute privilege of entitlement not to wait until last breath? But is that also not absolute in HIS Love? Should we be jealous or ecstatic with Love for those that find HIM; no matter when?
William Noel
August 17, 2016 at 10:51 am
Conviction, How curious it is that you would quote Romans 14:13 about not judging when you’re the one doing all the judging of others! Apparently you are unable to answer simple questions. But since you persist in heaping accusations, I will add more questions that I doubt you will be capable of answering. What is “privilege of entitlement?” What “stumbling blocks that others have placed in your way” are you imagining when you know nothing about the people you accuse? How long will you persist in blaspheming against HIS followers?